Geordies killed in plane attack

Just read that 2 Newcastle lads on way to see them play in NZ were killed when the pro-Russian separatists shot down the Malaysian plane. RIP lads.

Terrible and shocking

Quoted from Southernboy

Just read that 2 Newcastle lads on way to see them play in NZ [/b]were killed when the pro-Russian separatists shot down the Malaysian plane.[b] RIP lads.

Terrible and shocking

Lets wait for the facts before stating who fired the missile.
So sorry for all the families and friends that have lost loved ones in this terrible crime. RIP all that were onboard the plane.

I don't really care who ticks or crosses my posts or other members posts but how does the beginning of this thread warrant a cross!?? Simply registering some sympathy as to what is an unprecedented event and someone opts to be negative. Shame on you.

Quoted from Kymariner12

I don't really care who ticks or crosses my posts or other members posts but how does the beginning of this thread warrant a cross!?? Simply registering some sympathy as to what is an unprecedented event and someone opts to be negative. Shame on you.

Totally 100% agree with you Ky that it is shameful that someone can find something negative about Southern Boy showing respect for the innocent dead.

Absolutely terrible incident yesterday - whatever caused the plane to crash - so RIP everyone who lost their lives

No matter what their background nobody who boarded that plane yesterday deserved to lose their lives  

its an appaling incident and hope to god they can find out who has done it, thoughts withh all families affected

Quoted from Kymariner12

I don't really care who ticks or crosses my posts or other members posts but how does the beginning of this thread warrant a cross!?? Simply registering some sympathy as to what is an unprecedented event and someone opts to be negative. Shame on you.

If you had just shown your respect to the people that lost their lives instead of adding your statement to who in YOUR mind had shot the plane down you wouldn't have received any crosses. Its a shame you don't really know whats going on in that area of Ukraine and yes before anyone asks I know from first hand,I have just been speaking to my Daughter in floods of tears,she is held up in the middle of this war zone not knowing if the next bomb is going to hit her house and kill her and her husband. Two weeks ago a bomb exploded in her neighbours garden and set fire to her own fencing,I would say thats to close for comfort.We speak to her on Skype every day and you can hear the bombs exploding and machine gun fire all the time,It's bloody scary..
And we argue on here  if we should show a stupid comedy film about Grimsby. Lets get things in to perspective.

I'm sorry to hear about your daughter but the "evidence" as it is and as it's available on BBC etc "suggests" a missile was fired from a "rebel controlled" area. I made no particular judgement although I have my own opinions on Putin.

I was showing respect to the lads hence the post and then added an opinion - I don't apologise for that. As I said, I am sorry your daughter is caught up in what must be a horrendous situation and I am sure you are terribly worried but please don't tell me on what I can or can't say.

Peace brothers and sisters

Southernboy, don't rely solely on the BBC or other Western media for this sort of story. i'm not saying they lie, but they are selective in what they report and have a noted spin on things (yes even the Beeb).

There are lots of incidents in that particular conflict that don't get a mentioning Western media, or only tucked away out of sight.

Even as far back as the winter, the BBC in its wisdom deemed it more important to report a holiday injury to a multi-millionaire ex-racing driver than 2 dozen people getting blown up by terrorists in Volgograd.

It would seem likely that the plane was shot down by the separatists (possibly partially trained by Russian forces) in an almighty member-up.

The Ukrainians haven't shot down any planes (as the separatists don't have any and shooting at the Russians would be nuts), whereas the separatists have downed a number of Ukrainian aircraft, albeit at low altitude.

Unfortunately, I think it's just a case of massive member-up, but I'd have to question why the flight path for civilian aircraft hadn't been diverted away from that part of the Ukraine?

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Southernboy, don't rely solely on the BBC or other Western media for this sort of story. i'm not saying they lie, but they are selective in what they report and have a noted spin on things (yes even the Beeb).

There are lots of incidents in that particular conflict that don't get a mentioning Western media, or only tucked away out of sight.

Even as far back as the winter, the BBC in its wisdom deemed it more important to report a holiday injury to a multi-millionaire ex-racing driver than 2 dozen people getting blown up by terrorists in Volgograd.

That is not so much news bias as news interest.  Media in the west is driven by open market forces meaning that a news story will be covered if their is more interest in it.  Sadly more people were interested in Micheal Schumacher having a skiing accident than a terrorist attack that does not effect "westerners" so it received more coverage.  This also means the press will cover more sensationalist news, for example during the Westgate terror attacks in Kenya last year where 67 people died there were 2 coordinated bomb attacks in Pakistan that killed over 80 people.  The Pakistan attack was barley mentioned while the gunmen attack, a more unusual and sensational story, was covered extensively.  As a result the ongoing war in Ukraine at the moment is not seen as an important issue until a plane is shot down carrying lots of westerners, now the press are interested in the story because people are interested in the story again and want to know what happened.  

This will not effect the truth which will eventually come out if for no other reason than western governments are useless at keeping secrets, while it is to early to say conclusively the evidence so far is pointing to the pro-Russian (unintentionally as there is no way they would of wanted to bring down a passenger jet!) side being to blame but hopefully this will become more clear over time.  

Either way this is a tragedy of great proportions and that should not be lost sight of.  On the particular case of the 2 geordies in the title of this thread I always have an extra shock moment when football fans die following their team as it is something I do myself, although Town give us little reason to fly anywhere.  I hope the Newcastle players and club as a whole continue to pay them and their families a strong tribute.

The UK news is becoming more Americanised and it has been happening for years and, possibly decades.  Most Americans do not know what happens outside their own state let alone outside America.  When I see something on the TV or hear something on the radio I will always go and look for several sources of information, the problem is that 97 countries around the world have large controlling shareholders who are either family or government owned.  History enables you to almost get a clearer picture of what is actually happening and you only have to look at what has been happening in Ukraine with Russia and the USA's stance it has been taking.  I feel that this is ramping up to have American boots on the ground in the Ukraine and for us to possibly enter another cold war.

Nah, I don't think there is any chance of US troops entering the Ukraine (other than perhaps a handful of 'specialist observers'). There is no appetite for this sort of thing and the Russians simply wouldn't allow it either.

One of the great pluses of the BBC is that it is (theoretically at least) independent of the commercial interests that the other (generally right-wing) networks are based around. The BBC political and economic reporting has failed in their duty in recent years due to those in charge such as Nick Robinson, but I think the overseas reporting is still pretty independent and free of any great bias, though obviously it is as western-centric viewpoint.

On the other hand, the "Russia Today" has been set up by the Russian state and is sheer unabashed propaganda, often planting utterly false news stories which aim to help Russian interests.

I understand that the news reporting of Al Jazeera is actually quite decent as well though obviously this takes the Arab-centric view that you might expect.

Unfortunately, as long as you've got shits like Murdoch controlling much of the world's media, you aren't going to be able to believe everything you read or hear.

The worry is that the BBC has been kowtowing to the current government, losing much of its independence in the process, as many Conservatives want to see it defunded - the BBC is trying not to rock the boat. Hopefully the BBC will remain relatively independent because, as Fox News has shown in the US, commercial networks really don't have any interest in telling the truth if they can make more money pandering to their usual viewer base.

Strangely enough Al jazeer World news seems to be the most independent outlet of news without bias, BBC lefties and SKY plus most of the North American news media lean heavily to the right. We still need a pacy striker to give us confidence to p1ss this league

Quoted from Garth

Strangely enough Al jazeer World news seems to be the most independent outlet of news without bias, BBC lefties and SKY plus most of the North American news media lean heavily to the right. We still need a pacy striker to give us confidence to p1ss this league

FFS You have to bring GTFC and football back into this thread on a GTFC football site.  

Quoted from Civvy at last

FFS You have to bring GTFC and football back into this thread on a GTFC football site.  

Was comparing Left and Right and thinking that we need someone to  operate down the middle

Sunderland fans have raised over £10k in memory of the 2 Newcastle fans who died.

It started off as a post on a Sunderland fans forum to try to raise enough money for a floral tribute and has spiraled into this incredible amount.

A brilliant effort by the Sunderland fans.

http://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/floral-tribute-for-the-newcastle-lads.943399/

Quoted from Marinerz93

The UK news is becoming more Americanised and it has been happening for years and, possibly decades.  Most Americans do not know what happens outside their own state let alone outside America.  When I see something on the TV or hear something on the radio I will always go and look for several sources of information, the problem is that 97 countries around the world have large controlling shareholders who are either family or government owned.  History enables you to almost get a clearer picture of what is actually happening and you only have to look at what has been happening in Ukraine with Russia and the USA's stance it has been taking.  I feel that this is ramping up to have American boots on the ground in the Ukraine and for us to possibly enter another cold war.

Nail on the head Marinerz93  excellent post. The F**king Yanks want a foothold in this area of Ukraine, they have been pouring Billions of Dollars into Ukraine, obviously to strengthen the Ukrainian Armoury to fight against the so called Pro Russian rebels. I  put nothing past Obama and his cronies, yes that includes our little american lap dog Cameron to have mastered this atrocity. Yes also Putin isn't squeaky clean I know. The truth will come out, just like it did regarding the plane that the Ukraine military shot down a few years ago, for a long while they denied any responsibility of that tragedy. This is supposed to be a democratic government in the Ukraine and they held a referendum in East Ukraine and 98% voted for an independent state (Donetsk peoples republic), so why has this murdering Bast@rd Porochenko turned on the people of that area, I'll tell you why, it's all down to money and the yanks hold the purse strings. There are protests all over the Ukraine now, which we never hear about, parents protesting against the government, they don't agree with the slaughter of innocent victims, men, women and children, that is happening every day in Eastern Ukraine. A family and their little girl of 5 was killed last week in a rocket attack that blasted their house apart, it was in a small village a mile from our Daughters house. The Ukrainian government claimed it was pilot error. I would call it Ethnic cleansing.

Quoted from Maringer

[/b]Nah, I don't think there is any chance of US troops entering the Ukraine (other than perhaps a handful of 'specialist observers').[b] There is no appetite for this sort of thing and the Russians simply wouldn't allow it either.

One of the great pluses of the BBC is that it is (theoretically at least) independent of the commercial interests that the other (generally right-wing) networks are based around. The BBC political and economic reporting has failed in their duty in recent years due to those in charge such as Nick Robinson, but I think the overseas reporting is still pretty independent and free of any great bias, though obviously it is as western-centric viewpoint.

On the other hand, the "Russia Today" has been set up by the Russian state and is sheer unabashed propaganda, often planting utterly false news stories which aim to help Russian interests.

I understand that the news reporting of Al Jazeera is actually quite decent as well though obviously this takes the Arab-centric view that you might expect.

Unfortunately, as long as you've got shits like Murdoch controlling much of the world's media, you aren't going to be able to believe everything you read or hear.

The worry is that the BBC has been kowtowing to the current government, losing much of its independence in the process, as many Conservatives want to see it defunded - the BBC is trying not to rock the boat. Hopefully the BBC will remain relatively independent because, as Fox News has shown in the US, commercial networks really don't have any interest in telling the truth if they can make more money pandering to their usual viewer base.

Sorry Maringer but don't you think the yanks havn't already got troops in the Ukraine ? They are a bankrupt country and as such had no government military might, who do you think funds their weapons and teaches them how to use them. Definitely not Russia.

Bloody hell Grimal, you sound just like my mate who's always going on about the fascist junta in Kiev. I think the truth is a lot more complex than that.

A couple of people have mentioned Al Jazeera as being the most reliable on this issue - probably right in this case. RT is undoubtedly Putin's mouthpiece but does have some true stories that you don't get in western media (like the use by Ukrainians of cluster bombs in built up areas).

Someone else mentioned "lefties" at the BBC. I don't think it's lefties there that are the problem. It's the fact it's acting as the propaganda arm of the Foreign Office that is undermining its credibility. And as Maringer said, its running scared of losing its licence. Lefties would have been stronger on the "fascist putsch" in Kiev line.

I accept that the Schumacher story is of more interest to most saps in this country than ordinary working people getting blown up on their daily commute, but as a publicly funded public service broadcaster the BBC should operate to higher standards than this. It should tell people what's important rather than what they want to hear. Yes tat's elitist but it's supposed to be news not a branch of the entertainment industry.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Bloody hell Grimal, you sound just like my mate who's always going on about the fascist junta in Kiev. I think the truth is a lot more complex than that.

A couple of people have mentioned Al Jazeera as being the most reliable on this issue - probably right in this case. RT is undoubtedly Putin's mouthpiece but does have some true stories that you don't get in western media (like the use by Ukrainians of cluster bombs in built up areas).

Someone else mentioned "lefties" at the BBC. I don't think it's lefties there that are the problem. It's the fact it's acting as the propaganda arm of the Foreign Office that is undermining its credibility. And as Maringer said, its running scared of losing its licence. Lefties would have been stronger on the "fascist putsch" in Kiev line.

I accept that the Schumacher story is of more interest to most saps in this country than ordinary working people getting blown up on their daily commute, but as a publicly funded public service broadcaster the BBC should operate to higher standards than this. It should tell people what's important rather than what they want to hear. Yes tat's elitist but it's supposed to be news not a branch of the entertainment industry.

That's one thing I've never understood with the BBC - who decides what stories to run?

In general I think they do have some good elements to their reporting compared to ITV & SKY but then their fawning over the Royal Family for example leaves me totally cold

Quoted from Grimal

Sorry Maringer but don't you think the yanks havn't already got troops in the Ukraine ? They are a bankrupt country and as such had no government military might, who do you think funds their weapons and teaches them how to use them. Definitely not Russia.

Eh? The Ukraine might be bankrupt, but they've also got a large standing army (tens of thousands of troops) with plenty of Soviet-era equipment. Who do you think is fighting against the 'separatists'? Most of the separatists themselves are ethnic Russians many of whom are former (and possibly present) members of the Russian army.

The theory that the Yanks are over in Ukraine fighting is, frankly, mind-boggling.

Blimey there is some on here who hold some *ahem* interesting views.  This is one of the reasons I try to avoid mixing my love of football with my interest in politics. One thing I have always loved about football is how people from various backgrounds, political views etc. can come to be united for 90 minutes, and how as a community fans stick together.  As evidenced by Les finding those Sunderland fans raising so much money for their rivals which I think is ace. However generally I am too weak to keep up that rule so...  

The idea that the Americans are pulling all the strings strikes me as a bit far fetched, they couldn't properly organise a stable government in Iraq or Afghanistan but can without the media exposing it train and support Ukraine. Of course if Russia declared this and journalists uncovered the evidence it would destroy their plans completely. Russia would have every reason to claim this is the case as they could then support the rebels openly.  As to why a poor country like Ukraine still has strong military it is because in any government one of the last things to go is their military.  North Korea is a bankrupt nation yet has an army capable of dishing out some significant damage for example.

Responding to Kingston as to why the BBC cannot maintain a higher standard the reason is simple, read any BBC trust report.  The fact that the BBC is funded by everyone means it has to reach everyone.  The BBC is constantly getting slammed by the trust for not doing enough to engage with younger viewers, how it is in danger of being elitist compared to other channels, how it needs to be more active in reaching people from all backgrounds

Quoted from Maringer

Eh? The Ukraine might be bankrupt, but they've also got a large standing army (tens of thousands of troops) with plenty of Soviet-era equipment. Who do you think is fighting against the 'separatists'? Most of the separatists themselves are ethnic Russians many of whom are former (and possibly present) members of the Russian army.

[/b]The theory that the Yanks are over in Ukraine fighting is, frankly, mind-boggling.

[b]

Maringer,I never mentioned anything about the yanks FIGHTING in the Ukraine . Also they have a large standing army as there is still conscription in Ukraine.
Caesar, I didn't say the yanks were pulling all the strings, I said its all about money and the yanks hold the purse strings.
The yanks couldn't pull a good c0ck.

Don't forget that there are plenty of journalists around in the western part of Ukraine. If there were a lot of US folks over there (even out of uniform), I don't doubt that there would have been some mention of the fact.

Other than egging the Ukrainians on, I really don't think there is a huge amount of influence going on there.

Quoted Text

so why has this murdering Bast@rd Porochenko turned on the people of that area, I'll tell you why, it's all down to money and the yanks hold the purse strings.

Sorry for misunderstanding Grimal but when you say this it makes it seem pretty clear that you think the Americans are pulling the strings.  Ukraine are acting the way they are because of money, the money is coming from the US. So what do you mean by this if you also think the Americans are incapable of pulling all the strings?

This belief that somehow the BBC are infiltrated and controlled by lefties makes me laugh. Was anyone on here aware that about three weeks ago 50,000 marched in Central London against austerity? If you were the chances are you read the Guardian because, at the time, it was the only place it was reported. The BBC ignored it on T.V and the radio. The BBC are (rightly) crapping themselves because a Tory win in 2015 will see the end of that national institution as we know it...

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Yes tat's elitist but it's supposed to be news not a branch of the entertainment industry.

I understand what you're saying but the news IS just a peculiar form of entertainment. There are an infinite amount of things happening, and there is very little that people must know about. They have to choose to cover the stories that resonate with people. I'm not saying that they have the balance right but there is no objective order of what is more important.

If it was based purely on number of deaths then the news would literally be the same every day ie. thousands of children dead through malaria and starvation in Africa. All the conflicts combined in the world at the moment don't come close to that but it only gets a mention one night every other year on Comic Relief.

Quoted from Caesar

Blimey there is some on here who hold some *ahem* interesting views.  This is one of the reasons I try to avoid mixing my love of football with my interest in politics. One thing I have always loved about football is how people from various backgrounds, political views etc. can come to be united for 90 minutes, and how as a community fans stick together.  As evidenced by Les finding those Sunderland fans raising so much money for their rivals which I think is ace. However generally I am too weak to keep up that rule so...  

The idea that the Americans are pulling all the strings strikes me as a bit far fetched, they couldn't properly organise a stable government in Iraq or Afghanistan but can without the media exposing it train and support Ukraine. Of course if Russia declared this and journalists uncovered the evidence it would destroy their plans completely. Russia would have every reason to claim this is the case as they could then support the rebels openly.  As to why a poor country like Ukraine still has strong military it is because in any government one of the last things to go is their military.  North Korea is a bankrupt nation yet has an army capable of dishing out some significant damage for example.

Responding to Kingston as to why the BBC cannot maintain a higher standard the reason is simple, read any BBC trust report.  The fact that the BBC is funded by everyone means it has to reach everyone.  The BBC is constantly getting slammed by the trust for not doing enough to engage with younger viewers, how it is in danger of being elitist compared to other channels, how it needs to be more active in reaching people from all backgrounds

I'm not saying the BBC is being elitist. If anything it needs to be more elitist. i.e. rise above the celebrity culture/entertainment industry dominated news.

I agree they're under pressure to "reach out" to a wider audience, but ......Their mission is to "educate, to inform and to entertain". Within their vast output there is surely scope to inform about the wider world than some rich German who hurt himself having fun. I for one empathise more with some poor saps who got blown up by nutters on public transport.

Quoted from MeanwoodMariner

I understand what you're saying but the news IS just a peculiar form of entertainment. There are an infinite amount of things happening, and there is very little that people must know about. They have to choose to cover the stories that resonate with people. I'm not saying that they have the balance right but there is no objective order of what is more important.

If it was based purely on number of deaths then the news would literally be the same every day ie. thousands of children dead through malaria and starvation in Africa. All the conflicts combined in the world at the moment don't come close to that but it only gets a mention one night every other year on Comic Relief.

"Resonate" is precisely the word they used in response to a complaint I raised at the time. flipping hell, if "resonates more with the public" is the yardstick of what's newsworthy, we'd have news dominated by One Direction and Britain's Got a Brand New Voice Academy, immediately followed by programmes of a similar ilk.

I'm not even arguing for news based on what affects the greatest number of people in the world, the Beeb is actually quite good at that type of news coverage. I would argue that the murder and maiming of dozens of Russians is actually closer to us culturally than  some other disasters. Most of us have a lot more in common with folk going about their lawful business in New York, London, Madrid, Moscow, Volgograd. A little more empathy with the people who did more than any other to rid the world of the Nazis (the people not their leaders) wouldn't go amiss.

Anyway, sorry for jumping onto one of my hobby horses folks!

I got side-tracked from the main issue of 300 innocent people being shot from the skies.

I shall leave this debate to others obviously more politically astute for a while, and return to the theme of the original thread if i may, and inform that the Sunderland fans have now raised 25k. A tremendous effort in just a short while. This information comes direct from the BBC so can we all assume this is true, or is it a biased report?

As can be seen by the many viewpoints expressed on here the Ukraine is a complex place, and the shooting down of MH17 a complex issue. First of all, as a football fan, like all other fans I feel for the families of the dead. There but for the grace of God....

What does upset me, and it's been alluded to on here by a number of people as well, are a number of things

1. The response of the West, especially the United States - who have previous in this kind of thing. Remember them shooting down a plane somewhere in the Gulf area in the late 1980's?

2. The likes of Cameron demanding action against Russia and Putin in particular. As of yet, despite what appears at the moment to be gross mismanagement of the situation by Putin, there's nothing that has determined that Russia are to blame. They may be to blame, but for Cameron to come out and  be so forthright about it, probably because we have a general election next year and the Tory press will love it smacks of political opportunism of the very worst kind.

3. Selective morals shown by the BBC, and western governments. Whilst there's no doubting the shooting down of the plane is a terrible thing, and 80 children died because of it, there's not one of the sabre rattling politicos doing anything like that with the amount of Palestinian children murdered by the Israelis in the last few weeks, which is now far greater than the 80 children on board MH17.

Hopefully things will get sorted out soon, not least of all the families being able to get their loved ones back so they can bury them. Football, for me, in this instance is meaningless.

Spot on Jock

Quoted from jock dock tower

As can be seen by the many viewpoints expressed on here the Ukraine is a complex place, and the shooting down of MH17 a complex issue. First of all, as a football fan, like all other fans I feel for the families of the dead. There but for the grace of God....

What does upset me, and it's been alluded to on here by a number of people as well, are a number of things

1. The response of the West, especially the United States - who have previous in this kind of thing. Remember them shooting down a plane somewhere in the Gulf area in the late 1980's?

2. The likes of Cameron demanding action against Russia and Putin in particular. As of yet, despite what appears at the moment to be gross mismanagement of the situation by Putin, there's nothing that has determined that Russia are to blame. They may be to blame, but for Cameron to come out and  be so forthright about it, probably because we have a general election next year and the Tory press will love it smacks of political opportunism of the very worst kind.

3. Selective morals shown by the BBC, and western governments. Whilst there's no doubting the shooting down of the plane is a terrible thing, and 80 children died because of it, there's not one of the sabre rattling politicos doing anything like that with the amount of Palestinian children murdered by the Israelis in the last few weeks, which is now far greater than the 80 children on board MH17.

Hopefully things will get sorted out soon, not least of all the families being able to get their loved ones back so they can bury them. Football, for me, in this instance is meaningless.

A good post Jock.  
Come election day Camerons statements  may come back and bite him on the bum if he's got it all wrong.

Quoted from KingstonMariner

Anyway, sorry for jumping onto one of my hobby horses folks!

I got side-tracked from the main issue of 300 innocent people being shot from the skies.

On that subject I will say with some certainty that had the unfortunate passengers been American there would have been hell to play, and their presence on the scene would have been almost instant whatever the threats or costs, in these matters they have backbone.