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rancido
November 19, 2014, 1:49pm

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I just read the blurb in the GT and would advise anyone with thoughts on the subject to do the same ....... very carefully.

The first question to ask is if the "research" compares like with like. Are Grimsby, GTFC and the Parkway site comparable to Manchester & the Etihad or Swansea, or Birmingham or Sunderland? The answer to that is self-evident. Additionally, house prices have risen for a lot of other reasons since those places had new stadia. House prices might even rise around a Parkway stadium but it won't be because of it and house owners might have to wait a few decades.

At Scunthorpe Mr Swann is promising his own money as part funding with grants and the development is in tandem with Lucent's Lakeside Leisure development. They can even afford to exclude the sale of Glanford Park from the funding and wait for the best price for it.

The next issue is the actual cost. The proposal budget is £22m. A pinch of salt here. The York City stadium for instance started at £18m and is currently at £25m.

Then there is the housing. Both plans contain massive housing development as the long term costs of the stadium. Plan A with 1488 houses would see a vast covering over of greenfield land down the Parkway. Even Plan B with 850 houses would create a pretty massive estate. For comparison, the whole of the Nunsthorpe estate has 2400 houses.

The last time there was a development of this size was in the 1960s & 70s when areas like Springfield, Fairfield, Middlethorpe and Signhills were built. The other difference is that most of those estates were built by local builders in relatively small parcels using local labour, the money stayed in town.

How anyone can work out that such a development today will bring £120m or £200m or £1b of "inward investment" is beyond my tiny brain. They must have some sort of crystal ball. There will certainly be money made but whether Grimsby will see much of it is another matter.

No mention of the ultimate effect of all this on the Parkway itself either, which as everyone knows was deliberately built on the old railway line to provide a trunk road directly into the town centre from the south for docks, commercial and commuting traffic.

So beware of plans bearing fancy health spas and other enticing goodies. It reads more and more as though the new ground is a sweetener to a much bigger money making scheme.

Town need a new ground but at what cost? Not convinced.





But isn't there a strong possibility that these development plans might still go ahead without GTFC so we miss out completely? Towns grow , that is an undeniable fact and with the rate our population is rising, especially as we are a much better prospect to Eastern Europeans in the EU wanting to make a fresh start, then surely it should be to our advantage to benefit from this. I have no problem with some people making a lot of money out of this, it happens everywhere and to me there is nothing wrong in that. If us fans adopt a too negative attitude over this we could find ourselves stuck in a crumbling ground and no way of ever moving to new premises.


The Future is Black & White.
"The commonest thing on this planet is not water , as some people believe, but stupidity ". Frank Zappa
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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
November 19, 2014, 4:09pm
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Quoted from rancido



But isn't there a strong possibility that these development plans might still go ahead without GTFC so we miss out completely? Towns grow , that is an undeniable fact and with the rate our population is rising, especially as we are a much better prospect to Eastern Europeans in the EU wanting to make a fresh start, then surely it should be to our advantage to benefit from this. I have no problem with some people making a lot of money out of this, it happens everywhere and to me there is nothing wrong in that. If us fans adopt a too negative attitude over this we could find ourselves stuck in a crumbling ground and no way of ever moving to new premises.


You might well be right Rancido, there may be plans afoot for housing development down to the south of town and JF may be riding on the coat tails of it. I have no nimby thoughts on it but looking at the town I cannot see that such a development can be anything else but a developer's wet dream and sod all good for Grimsby.

Towns grow but going outwards like this will only make the central area of town more of a desert than it is now. If Grimsby had really good town planners they would be releasing land in that area for housing, increasing the population there and so increasing the demand for retail in the town centre. That is what has happened in Hull for example. The more locals you have near the shops the less you need to rely on out of town visitors with a car. The more you split the residential areas the more you have to either put more out of town shops or allow for commuting into town. Also this still doesn't answer what happens with the A16 trunk road that will become a residential access.

Where does it leave us with the new ground? It could still be on the Parkway if the sponsorship deals and grants worked out OK and if that's what everyone wants or it could be somewhere else. I'm not against us having one there it's just that all the extras in these plans don't work for me.

I do wish red crossers were a bit more open minded, thought outside of the obvious and at least countered my arguments in a post as you have.


“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
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grimsby pete
November 19, 2014, 4:43pm

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If the project included a swimming pool in a leisure centre that had a training area for the use of both GTFC and the general public,

Plus 3G   5 a side pitches that could be used year round,

That would be a winner for both the club and locals,

Just a thought.


                             Over 36 years living in Suffolk but always a mariner.
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rancido
November 19, 2014, 8:46pm

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You might well be right Rancido, there may be plans afoot for housing development down to the south of town and JF may be riding on the coat tails of it. I have no nimby thoughts on it but looking at the town I cannot see that such a development can be anything else but a developer's wet dream and sod all good for Grimsby.

Towns grow but going outwards like this will only make the central area of town more of a desert than it is now. If Grimsby had really good town planners they would be releasing land in that area for housing, increasing the population there and so increasing the demand for retail in the town centre. That is what has happened in Hull for example. The more locals you have near the shops the less you need to rely on out of town visitors with a car. The more you split the residential areas the more you have to either put more out of town shops or allow for commuting into town. Also this still doesn't answer what happens with the A16 trunk road that will become a residential access.

Where does it leave us with the new ground? It could still be on the Parkway if the sponsorship deals and grants worked out OK and if that's what everyone wants or it could be somewhere else. I'm not against us having one there it's just that all the extras in these plans don't work for me.

I do wish red crossers were a bit more open minded, thought outside of the obvious and at least countered my arguments in a post as you have.



There are a lot of brownfield sites in Grimsby/Cleethorpes but mostly smallish pockets of land. The old Birds Eye site seems to be the only sizeable one and that has been ear-marked for housing. A lot of the housing in the centre of town was built late 19th century and is getting quite dated but obviously is unavailable for re-development. The fact is that when the club moves then that will release a brownfield site for housing!


The Future is Black & White.
"The commonest thing on this planet is not water , as some people believe, but stupidity ". Frank Zappa
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mariner2000
November 19, 2014, 9:02pm

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Quoted from rancido



But isn't there a strong possibility that these development plans might still go ahead without GTFC so we miss out completely? Towns grow , that is an undeniable fact and with the rate our population is rising, especially as we are a much better prospect to Eastern Europeans in the EU wanting to make a fresh start, then surely it should be to our advantage to benefit from this. I have no problem with some people making a lot of money out of this, it happens everywhere and to me there is nothing wrong in that. If us fans adopt a too negative attitude over this we could find ourselves stuck in a crumbling ground and no way of ever moving to new premises.


It is without doubt that if GTFC don't build on this land someone will, whether it be a supermarket and or housing it WILL happen.

The Parkway was built simply to open up land at "Scartho Top" a number of developments again of smaller scale are being suggested in and around New Waltham and these are being largely rejected but simply viable because the road was built.

There was no point in the massive outlay for the road if it was not also going to bring in more investment, it an only do this if there is land to be built on.

Allowing houses to be built on this land WILL support the Town centre...as there is a nice straight road taking cars there!

If any NIMBYS do think objecting to the stadium will protect a greenfield site and their allotments they are completely ignorant of reality.
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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
November 19, 2014, 10:18pm
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Quoted from rancido



There are a lot of brownfield sites in Grimsby/Cleethorpes but mostly smallish pockets of land. The old Birds Eye site seems to be the only sizeable one and that has been ear-marked for housing. A lot of the housing in the centre of town was built late 19th century and is getting quite dated but obviously is unavailable for re-development. The fact is that when the club moves then that will release a brownfield site for housing!



That may be just the point. A lot of small pockets with decent value houses is better than a huge estate. I know as well as anyone that the practicalities are not easy but that isn't the main issue.

To me, it boils down to how desperate people are to have a new ground and what they are prepared to do to the town they live in to get it. Reading the blurb in the GT again tonight it really does look as though there is a money making scheme in process somewhere and the new ground is being thrown into the mix to get local support for outside developers to make a killing.


“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
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lee65
November 20, 2014, 11:26am
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Surely the largest proportion of exiled home fans, away teams, and away fans will come in via the A180 end of Town.
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ska face
November 20, 2014, 12:38pm

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It's well noted that a large proportion of the club's fan base is 50/60+  

What has been done to make the petition accessible to people without internet access or IT Literate?
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WOZOFGRIMSBY
November 20, 2014, 2:17pm

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As ska says, are petitions available in the club shop, club bars, at the turnstiles etc though guessing this is already being done


He’s one of our loans
He’s one of our loans
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He’s one of our loans
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rancido
November 20, 2014, 8:18pm

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Quoted from lee65
Surely the largest proportion of exiled home fans, away teams, and away fans will come in via the A180 end of Town.




Not if they are coming from the midlands ( A46 ) or the south ( A16 ).


The Future is Black & White.
"The commonest thing on this planet is not water , as some people believe, but stupidity ". Frank Zappa
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