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Strikers - a different perspective

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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
October 7, 2015, 4:58pm
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Quoted from Maringer
One thing about Bogle's play that drives me mad is that when he gets possession he invariably tries some sort of a trick - a step-over or flick. Now, this isn't bad when he's trying to beat a man (and he almost got through a couple of challenges with a trick last night), but he also seems to attempt it when there is nobody near him and it can't possibly achieve anything!

The very best players only use such tricks sparingly because good old-fashioned running, close-control and movement is generally what is required to succeed. Bogle's got those in his locker as well so I, for one, would be pleased to see him simply laying the ball off more frequently instead of attempting various tricks in the midfield area. His best touch last night was a first time lay-off finding a good Amond run so I'd like to see more effective, simple play of that sort than backheels which get him and us nowhere.


Wouldn't disagree. I remember Tony Rees used to drive me mad with that kind of thing when he first came. I don't know how Buckley did it but we saw fairly soon less of the blind flick ons and stuff.



“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”
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ginnywings
October 7, 2015, 5:01pm

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We didn't really have much choice at the start of the season with forwards. We only had three and i don't think JPP was quite up to speed. I think Bogle was probably thrown in quicker than Hurst wanted and him and Doig will be wanting to work on his team ethic before he's to be a first choice. The fact he banged in 7 goals seems by the by for Hurst. My first impressions of him was that he's a handful but very raw, which i said in my first just back thread of the season. Amond is a much better all round player i feel but he's down the pecking order too at the moment. We just have to trust that Hurst gets the right balance because it's the thing that has stopped us being successful so far. We've had spells of scoring lots but letting too many in (the Hearn period) and spells of being mean at the back but not scoring enough ( last season), which we need to get right if we want out of this league.
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toontown
October 7, 2015, 11:03pm
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The most pointless trick last night (a back heel when in plenty of space that lost possesion) came in the second half from Tomlinson.
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Brisbane Mariner
October 7, 2015, 11:54pm

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Quoted from LH
My theory is that the powers that be have told Hurst not to play Bogle and Amond because their goalscoring bonuses will bankrupt the club if they carried on at that rate.  


Its a conspiracy I tell you  


Its hard enough remembering my opinions without remembering my reasons for them!
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Brisbane Mariner
October 7, 2015, 11:56pm

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Quoted from ginnywings
We didn't really have much choice at the start of the season with forwards. We only had three and i don't think JPP was quite up to speed. I think Bogle was probably thrown in quicker than Hurst wanted and him and Doig will be wanting to work on his team ethic before he's to be a first choice. The fact he banged in 7 goals seems by the by for Hurst. My first impressions of him was that he's a handful but very raw, which i said in my first just back thread of the season. Amond is a much better all round player i feel but he's down the pecking order too at the moment. We just have to trust that Hurst gets the right balance because it's the thing that has stopped us being successful so far. We've had spells of scoring lots but letting too many in (the Hearn period) and spells of being mean at the back but not scoring enough ( last season), which we need to get right if we want out of this league.


Reasonable enough.

I think its great that we have all forwards competing and scoring with a mixture of experience, talent and raw ability that needs polishing UTM


Its hard enough remembering my opinions without remembering my reasons for them!
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KingstonMariner
October 8, 2015, 12:22am
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Quoted from Rodley Mariner
I'm surprised neither of Amond or Bogle are starting but we're averaging more points per game when neither of them start than when both of them or just Bogle did. We've only lost two games this season and Amond and Bogle started up front in both of them. Statisitics only tell half the story but I'd suggest they hint that PH's decision making isn't quite as crazy as some on here like to suggest.


Didn't believe it and had to check and surprised myself. You're right.

Overall average: 25 from 15 = 1.67 pts/game
4 games with neither B nor A starting: Southport, Wrexham, FGR and Gateshead. 8 points. Average 2 pts/game
11 games with B&/A starting: 17 points. Ave 1.55 pts/game

So maybe you're right on your other point: Hurst isn't as crazy as some of us thought  

Not sure this directly relates to why we've shipped so many soft goals, which came less from sustained pressure by the oppo than through defensive errors.

A much better argument than the usual anti-anti-Hurst statements.


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KingstonMariner
October 8, 2015, 12:31am
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Quoted from LondonMariner43
I thought I'd enter into this hot topic....

At the moment we have four good strikers on our books and two midfielders in Arnold and Monkhouse who can play in more advanced positions and score goals.

Barely since the days of Rees and Woods or back to Wilkinson and Lund can I remember having this sort of depth in the squad (relative to our league position).  Hurst has to take a lot of credit.  Good strikers are hard to get and last season it took until the second half of the season to get even remotely near this position - Alan Connell anyone?

At the moment we are second highest scorers in the league so Hurst and the players must be doing something right.

So what two should he have chosen last night.

He can choose from:

Pittman - together with Amond, probably the most skilful forward we have.  Injury prone so unlikely to be available all season but when fully fit and in form, why should he be dropped?  I also think JPP plays well alongside a big nuisance striker like The Shop, Ollie and Tomlinson.

Amond - has been injured, back to full fitness but is he ready to play from the start.  Why risk it when Pittman is fit and in form?

Bogle - we have to remember Bogle is a 3 year investment to the club, has loads of promise but new to professional football, full time training and has been a bit vulnerable to injury early in the season.  Hurst always said he would ease him into things.  Against some of the more 'knowing' teams in the league he may benefit from being rested and saved for the lesser matches to start with.

Tomlinson - clearly not everyone's cup of tea but he is a striker with a decent track record at this level, and with the experience to deal with a bit of pressure.  He has been playing alongside Pittman in matches where we have had some decent results.

I imagine it wasn't a slam dunk decision for Hurst last night but maybe having already decided to freshen up the right side of the pitch he decided for continuity up front.  To blast him every time he doesn't play Amond and Bogle seems crazy to me.  He has to plot success over 46 and maybe 49 league games.  He needs 4 fit and hungry strikers for all those games and it seems to me that he is managing his resources sensibly.


At last! Someone who makes a properly reasoned argument rather than jumping down the manager's critics' throats. I think if there was more of this a lot of the sting would be taken out of the "debate" on this board.

People are more likely to be convinced by posts like yours LM, which actually take you through the possible thought processes in a decision, than the "shut up what do you know, you aren't a proper fan" type of post.


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ginnywings
October 8, 2015, 8:48am

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Quoted from KingstonMariner


Didn't believe it and had to check and surprised myself. You're right.

Overall average: 25 from 15 = 1.67 pts/game
4 games with neither B nor A starting: Southport, Wrexham, FGR and Gateshead. 8 points. Average 2 pts/game
11 games with B&/A starting: 17 points. Ave 1.55 pts/game

So maybe you're right on your other point: Hurst isn't as crazy as some of us thought  

Not sure this directly relates to why we've shipped so many soft goals, which came less from sustained pressure by the oppo than through defensive errors.

A much better argument than the usual anti-anti-Hurst statements.


Plus the 2 point per game average has come against better sides (Southport apart) and vindicates Hurst somewhat. I think given the choice between outscoring opponents and out-defending opponents, Hurst will take the latter option. He clearly felt Bogle and Amond were not defending from the front enough and Bogle in particular is prone to giving the ball away in dangerous areas leading to counter attacks from the opposition with players committed up the pitch and full backs being exposed. A lot of the goals were coming from the wings when we had lost our shape.
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Neilo83
October 8, 2015, 9:47am
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It's all well and good having 4 good strikers but we've got to use them properly, does anyone think that our coaching staff setup is too defence minded, Hurst ex defender, Doig ex defender, Moore ex defender... Would be nice to get someone that was an ex attacker on there to see how that goes..
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Tommy
October 8, 2015, 10:00am
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Quoted from Neilo83
It's all well and good having 4 good strikers but we've got to use them properly, does anyone think that our coaching staff setup is too defence minded, Hurst ex defender, Doig ex defender, Moore ex defender... Would be nice to get someone that was an ex attacker on there to see how that goes..


I understand why people say that, but I don't think it's that important.

It comes down to a Manager's coaching/management philosophy rather than the position they played as a player. The position they used to play can influence their coaching philosophy, but there's plenty that go against the theory too.

Eddie Howe was a defender but his Bournemouth team play nice attacking football.

George Graham was a forward but his teams were the dull but effective type, famously grinding out 1-0 wins.

Besides, let's not forget we are the 2nd highest goalscorers in the division.


"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one."
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