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How Far Have We Come..........

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MuddyWaters
February 3, 2016, 5:35pm
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Quoted from GrimRob


Stick with PH then! We'll always be challenging near the top with a good chance of going up. Every season we have probably around a 1 in 4 chance of going up with him in charge I reckon.


A chance of going up? Sorry, not good enough. Fenty's decisions brought us down here, now he has to make the choices and investment to get us back. I'm sure Paul Hurst is a cracking bloke but he just doesn't seem to be hard enough - we start too slowly in every 45 minutes of football we play and we only ever make decisions with 20 minutes to go. He's in the last chance saloon for me.
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GrimRob
February 3, 2016, 5:42pm

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If there was a magic wand you could wave it would have been waved by now. All your can do is give yourself a good. chance every season which with the current setup we are doing. We are talking about something extremely hard to do and it's getting harder all the time as other richer clubs enter the division from above and below.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
~ Alfred Lord Tennyson

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TheRonRaffertyFanClub
February 3, 2016, 6:09pm
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How far have we come?

Not bloody far enough yet!


“If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”
― John Stuart Mill, On Liberty."
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MuddyWaters
February 3, 2016, 6:33pm
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Quoted from GrimRob
If there was a magic wand you could wave it would have been waved by now. All your can do is give yourself a good. chance every season which with the current setup we are doing. We are talking about something extremely hard to do and it's getting harder all the time as other richer clubs enter the division from above and below.


It's all about opinions isn't it. I'm not going to apologise for banging on about Fenty's legacy - which rather than being a new stadium currently stands as being the only chairman in our history to take us out of the league.
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GrimRob
February 3, 2016, 6:50pm

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Quoted from MuddyWaters


It's all about opinions isn't it. I'm not going to apologise for banging on about Fenty's legacy - which rather than being a new stadium currently stands as being the only chairman in our history to take us out of the league.


It was never likely to happen though for most of our history when it was virtually impossible to get relegated. There has only been about 30 years when it was possible to get relegated with one bad season. There has also been a huge influx of towns where football was not played until recently which has forced out a lot of traditional teams like us - Stevenage who replaced us being a prime example. The chances are whoever had been chairman we'd have at very least flirted with relegation during the last 30 years.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
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MuddyWaters
February 3, 2016, 6:54pm
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Quoted from GrimRob


It was never likely to happen though for most of our history when it was virtually impossible to get relegated. There has only been about 30 years when it was possible to get relegated with one bad season. There has also been a huge influx of towns where football was not played until recently which has forced out a lot of traditional teams like us - Stevenage who replaced us being a prime example. The chances are whoever had been chairman we'd have at very least flirted with relegation during the last 30 years.


Of all of the excuses, and there have been many, for the decade of bad decisions, benign loans etc, that is probably one of the worst. We have dropped further down the football ladder than anyone with the exception of Darlington and Stockport. Given your argument therefore, can you explain why the likes of Scunthorpe, Rotherham, Bury and Rochdale are where they are in comparison?
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LondonMariner43
February 3, 2016, 6:58pm
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In the last 45 years (maybe longer but I'm not old enough to know) we have been champions in a league twice - once under Lawrie Mac and once under George Kerr.  Pre Hurst we had two play off campaigns, winning one under Buckley and beaten finalists under Slade.

Under Hurst, we have had three successive finishes in the play offs and probably a fourth this season unless things go really bad from here.  Each season the side has got stronger.

Against Newport we never looked like reaching Wembley.  Against Gateshead we should have gone to Wembley - the less said about that second leg the better.  Last season we out played the favourites for most of the game and lost on a penalty kick against a team now challenging for promotion in L2.

I'm disappointed that we are 'only' third but I am also proud that the club and the team has a great spirit on and off the pitch.

I don't recall any manager in recent history who has achieved consistently strong results over 4 years.

I also observe many clubs who come down into non league and do far far worse than us.

Maybe if we don't go up this season, then it's time to 'freshen it up' but no way will I ever call Hurst a failure.  

I have followed Town since George Kerr took the reins and PH is up there as one of the best managers in my time.  If he gets us out of this league he will have achieved one of the hardest tasks in English football and deserves to be a Town legend.
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barralad
February 3, 2016, 7:08pm
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Quoted from MuddyWaters


A chance of going up? Sorry, not good enough. Fenty's decisions brought us down here, now he has to make the choices and investment to get us back. I'm sure Paul Hurst is a cracking bloke but he just doesn't seem to be hard enough - we start too slowly in every 45 minutes of football we play and we only ever make decisions with 20 minutes to go. He's in the last chance saloon for me.


The difficulty is quantifying what is meant by investment. VGR have chucked money at it for a couple of seasons and by most measures are no better off than we are with our steady approach. Whilst I'll readily accept that a quick sweep with a new broom could be exactly what we are needing there are no guarantees and at this level there are plenty of examples to show that regular sackings of managers doesn't work.


The aim of argument or discussion should not be victory but progress.

Joseph Joubert.
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GrimRob
February 3, 2016, 7:08pm

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Quoted from MuddyWaters


Of all of the excuses, and there have been many, for the decade of bad decisions, benign loans etc, that is probably one of the worst. We have dropped further down the football ladder than anyone with the exception of Darlington and Stockport. Given your argument therefore, can you explain why the likes of Scunthorpe, Rotherham, Bury and Rochdale are where they are in comparison?


We were playing two divisions above our natural level for most of the 1990s and now we are one division below, and at the right end of it. Bury and Rochdale are from an area where there is more money that's why they have risen as the demographics of the game have changed. Scunny are definitely in a higher division than their natural level, but that doesn't mean you should demand the same of us.

The fact is that your are attributing a fall that would have happened anyway to benign loans and all of the rest of it because you think Town are a far bigger fish than they actually are.


'Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.  
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LondonMariner43
February 3, 2016, 7:43pm
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I thought this thread was about how we have progressed (or not) in our battle to move up to L2.  Now it seems to be a debate about John Fenty's legacy?  

My view on the JF debate is that we were massively screwed over by the whole ITV debacle.  We were holding our own above our natural level and we were probably hit more by the ITV thing than any other club due to it being a higher proportion of total income that was lost.  

Since then, there have been some bad decisions and appointments but in hindsight maybe the biggest mistake was not to take the easy option of administration.  I am proud that we didn't do it but we can see how other clubs have benefitted in the long run from screwing their creditors.

In the last few years I would argue that John Fenty's has done much to contribute to a feeling of stability at the club as well as simply keeping us afloat.  Maybe like Hurst, he has been learning on the job.

Finally, whilst we all want promotion, is life really so bad?  Four seasons in the top 5, better crowds than nearly all L2 sides and many in L1.  A motivated team scoring plenty of goals.  

Our natural level is to float between L1 and L2.  I look forward to our L1 relegation season in X years time when (if the Fishy hasn't imploded into indignant rage by then) we are on here moaning about being near the bottom of L1, calling for the Board to entice PH back from managing a Championship side and being nostalgic about those days in non league when we went months without losing and always won 4-1....
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