For years I've always seen us as a club whose natural level is League 1, which is a bit weird as I've only seen us have 2 seasons there in my lifetime!  It got me thinking about what our current status is within the game, as I glanced at the League 2 table and thought 'hang on, there's some big clubs in there, I don't remember it being like that before!'.

I wondered if you lot agreed or disagreed with the relative size of GTFC (mainly to do with fan base, and potential fan base) compared to the others?  Here's how I see it:

Clubs bigger than Town:

Plymouth (they might go up to League 1 anyway)
Portsmouth (this is a given)
Carlisle
Luton
Notts County
Donny (this is possibly a debate in itself.....)
Blackpool

Clubs smaller than Town:

Accrington
Wimbledon (also in the Playoff Final......)
Leyton Orient
Cambridge
Mansfield
Wycombe
Exeter
Barnet
Hartlepool
Stevenage
Yeovil
Crawley
Morecambe
Newport
Cheltenham
Colchester
Crewe

You could of course argue that clubs like Orient, Crewe and Cambridge are very similar sized, and I wouldn't disagree with that, but I thought I'd be ruthless and chance my arm a little!

Do people think I'm over or under-cooking us as an outfit?  Be interesting to see whether we think our stock has risen or fallen during the wilderness years........

In summary, though, I still see this next season being one of discovery for us and I'd see mid-table as being a big step in the right direction and a decent achievement.

Anybody got any thoughts?

Doncaster bigger than Town? Maybe ground-wise at the moment, but never in a million years!

I really do hate this 'were a bigger club than x'. What dictates who is a bigger club than another? And what do you win for being a big club? It really is a nonsense.

It's hilarious to see Doncaster putting us down and claiming they're a big club after our promotion.

Doncaster have NEVER been a bigger club than us. In league position over the past 10 years yes, but never before that. Parity is gradually being restored.

Saying that they're increasing their budget next year, last year it was £4.5m! Absolutely eye watering stuff.

Quoted from Mandy Dunnit vs Hettie

Doncaster bigger than Town? Maybe ground-wise at the moment, but never in a million years!

Why, because they were a poxy non-league club?  Those in glass houses.....

Donny is a bigger place with more people (so I believe), and my opinion is that their home gates and travelling support would be bigger than ours if they had some success again.

Anyway, it's all about opinions, that's all!  I could have it wrong.

Quoted from pontoonlew

It's hilarious to see Doncaster putting us down and claiming they're a big club after our promotion.

Doncaster have NEVER been a bigger club than us. In league position over the past 10 years yes, but never before that. Parity is gradually being restored.

Saying that they're increasing their budget next year, last year it was £4.5m! Absolutely eye watering stuff.

That would indicate that they're a bigger club, surely?

Quoted from jimgtfc

I really do hate this 'were a bigger club than x'. What dictates who is a bigger club than another? And what do you win for being a big club? It really is a nonsense.

I already said I've based it on fan base and potential fan base, so I don't see it as nonsense at all.

Still recovering from Championship wages with a rich chairman.

Donny have spent a large chunk of their history in Non Leagye.

I'd swap Carlisle for the Orient and you are not far off

Quoted from Heisenberg

I already said I've based it on fan base and potential fan base, so I don't see it as nonsense at all.

Agree .Fan base coupled with history does make a big effect if the energy is harnessed correctly.Just look at them special nights at Anfield when Liverpool won the Champions league in 2005 with a squad assembled that in the eyes of many wasnt that good.Hence it was the passion of the crowd that helped players overcome much bigger teams en route to the final and win that lucrative trophy

There's hardly any difference in the population of Doncaster with Grimsby and Cleethorpes so why is their potential fan base bigger?

Quoted from pontoonlew

Still recovering from Championship wages with a rich chairman.

Donny have spent a large chunk of their history in Non Leagye.

I didn't think Donny were non-league for much longer than us?  Cambridge had 9 years down there, but so what?  I'd hope nobody holds our 6 years against us for eternity!

The way I see it is the natural order of life does dictate what happens in the long term.  The Man City's DO go down to League 1, but ultimately they return because of their size.

The only reason Bournemouth are in the Premier League is because their owner allowed them to overspend by +£30m, and clubs like Crawley start to falter when the extra money runs out and they have to run on their own steam.

In this respect, I think Town will rise to League 1 in the coming years and the crowds will level out at around 6,000, but of course there's no guarantee.

Doncaster's basic fan base has historically been about the same as ours since the 70s but the hinterland is a lot more populated so if they are doing well you get people from around Rotherham, Barnsley, Leeds etc. who are sort of part-time fans.

Quoted from Swansea_Mariner

There's hardly any difference in the population of Doncaster with Grimsby and Cleethorpes so why is their potential fan base bigger?

You may be right there, but it's my opinion that their crowds when in the Championship were bigger than ours ever were in the present era.  You could be right though, the bubble may have burst there, but I'm not so sure.

Maybe it's just their new ground which made the difference.  Time will tell.

Sounds about right, we're nearer top than middle...have to account for history as well as fan base. Remember when we were hovering around the bottom waiting for the seemingly inevitable relegation AB mentioned that it didn't seem right not having us in the league...that was true but we've seen other clubs go from strength to strength and we need to keep the push for the new stadium to maintain our status! :)

"Size doesn't matter if you're winning" - Rocky Balboa...possibly

I do think the ground makes a big difference, it happened down here in Swansea where crowds virtually doubled over night. Hopefully we'll get to experience this boom sometime soon!

I would say Leyton Orient are a similar sized club.

I see us as top end of League 2, competing in League 1 in the good years and with an exceptional manager, maybe a flirtation to the Championship again. Think we have been promoted and relegated more than any other team, so my time supporting Town has seen us going up and down like a whore's drawers.

A new ground would give new impetus and almost certainly swell our fan base. No reason why we can't average around 10,000 under the right circumstances.

Attendance wise we will definately be top half at least , would even argue top 7 especially if things are going well . The budget I expect will be somewhere around the middle Pompey , Doncaster etc will have probably double even treble the budget of us , then there will be the likes of Accrington Barnet etc who's will be much lower . I hate the my clubs bigger than yours argument if it was Man U ( who I particularly despise ) would be winning everything with The Sun and BBC having a particularly long wet dream over it . We have a great club with great fans and a manager who with the right backing IMO can definately take us higher , with the boot on the other foot and us not under pressure so much I feel his style of play and siege mentality will be suited to the league especially against the bigger teams . I'me genuinely looking forward to a big game were we are put under the cosh and 'nick' a 1-0 like in the old days . UTM.Fox

Quoted from pontoonlew

Still recovering from Championship wages with a rich chairman.

Donny have spent a large chunk of their history in Non League.

Five seasons in the conference ( 1998-2003 ) and that's your lot since WWII....hardly a large chunk Lew  :-/

Defence is all important this coming season, winning by the odd goal will become the common situation IMO, we will need a quality keeper as competition for Macca.

For most of my life, Town have bounced backwards and forwards between Division 2 and Division 4. So League 1 seems about right to me, if we ignore this conference blip.

Donny was always a small time club until they built their new ground , most the people of Donny went and watched Leeds .
I've been there three times and all three we have out numbered the home fans .
Carlisle are about the same size as us and for all of the 80s and 90s Blackpool were getting a lot lower attendances than us and was always in leagues lower than us.
The new generation of town fans have no idea how successful this club once was

We have never spent much time in L1 ,

We just use it to get to the league above or below,

When we are on a up we go up again ,

When we are on a downer we go through L1 and down again.

Chesterfield comment on signing Nolan. Didn't know they had a history of being any good

"I suppose there is a certain level of satisfaction that we can shaft little tinpot teams like Grimsby the same way teams like Wigan can shaft us"

Don't worry about those buggers. Can't even build a church without cocking the spire up.

Chesterfield calling us tinpot? I've seen it all now.

Chesterfield calling us Tinpot ffs now I've heard it all .. That last day of the season when we invaded their town climbed their floodlights beat up there fairground travellers celebrated promotion must have been all in my sad little bonce (tooth) never ever can I accept that of fooking chesterfield

Quoted from pontoonlew

It's hilarious to see Doncaster putting us down and claiming they're a big club after our promotion.

Doncaster have NEVER been a bigger club than us. In league position over the past 10 years yes, but never before that. Parity is gradually being restored.

Saying that they're increasing their budget next year, last year it was £4.5m! Absolutely eye watering stuff.

They averaged 6,500 last season, that's more than we have managed for decades, so they are right now a bigger club than us. What we did 10 or 20 years ago is irrelevant.

I remember the bell vue days right dump of a ground lucky if they got 3000 same with Rotherham they only used to get a few thousand at millmoor just goes to show what a new ground can do.

Quoted from Grim74

I remember the bell vue days right dump of a ground lucky if they got 3000 same with Rotherham they only used to get a few thousand at millmoor just goes to show what a new ground can do.

Exactly, that's why we need one otherwise more teams like those will overtake us and we'll end up back in non-league.

Quoted from GrimRob

They averaged 6,500 last season, that's more than we have managed for decades, so they are right now a bigger club than us. What we did 10 or 20 years ago is irrelevant.

What was the average away support though I bet well over 1k?

I went to watch Doncaster play away at sheff Utd last season and considering the short distance only brought around 200 fans

We'll have a competitive budget plus a manager who knows how to spend it and 4000 very noisy Town fans every other week at BP. Historically we are the underdog so I'm not bothered by average gates especially just so long as the ones in there stay with the team and manager all season.

How do you measure how big a club is/was compared to other clubs?

To me it's all about the here and now rather than what was.

If we are to compete with the Donnys of this world then we need to level the playing field. By that I mean move to a new stadium with up to date facilities and income streams.

There are more Donny whites than Donny Rovers fans, FACT.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/SQuTGZr.gif[/img]

Our six years in the abyss have damaged the clubs stature within the game. The truth is we have an ageing ground, poor training facilities. I don't know what our scouting network is like but I doubt we have a man with his ear to the ground anywhere outside of Lincolnshire. Prozone stats and monitoring? Nutritionist? (That'll be Dave Moore).

We will need to re-establish ourselves as a proper football club after so long playing pub football, we lost our 2nd best player IMO to Chesterfield, a smaller club than ourselves not so long ago. We can't compete with them or the likes of Doncaster, again a smaller club than ourselves not so long ago.

Let's be honest, look at the Chesterfield and Doncaster examples, can anyone earn a gold star by pointing out what both clubs have in common?

Quoted from Mariner_09

We'll have a competitive budget plus a manager who knows how to spend it and 4000 very noisy Town fans every other week at BP. Historically we are the underdog so I'm not bothered by average gates especially just so long as the ones in there stay with the team and manager all season.

We need to keep the fans though. We're bound to get high gates next year on the strength of the promotion and the novelty of a new division . What worries me if people will keep coming after a couple of seasons of mid-table mediocrity with the last 10 games having next to nothing to play for,.In many ways it would be good to hit the ground running in League 2 so we can keep all fans interested and not the 2000-3000 die hards, It really feels as though we are treading water until the new ground comes along and we can really fulfil our potential but in the meantime a successful campaign in a higher division could go a long way

Quoted from Heisenberg

For years I've always seen us as a club whose natural level is League 1, which is a bit weird as I've only seen us have 2 seasons there in my lifetime!  It got me thinking about what our current status is within the game, as I glanced at the League 2 table and thought 'hang on, there's some big clubs in there, I don't remember it being like that before!'.

I wondered if you lot agreed or disagreed with the relative size of GTFC (mainly to do with fan base, and potential fan base) compared to the others?  Here's how I see it:

Clubs bigger than Town:

Plymouth (they might go up to League 1 anyway)
Portsmouth (this is a given)
Carlisle
Luton
Notts County
Donny (this is possibly a debate in itself.....)
Blackpool

Clubs smaller than Town:

Accrington
Wimbledon (also in the Playoff Final......)
Leyton Orient
Cambridge
Mansfield
Wycombe
Exeter
Barnet
Hartlepool
Stevenage
Yeovil
Crawley
Morecambe
Newport
Cheltenham
Colchester
Crewe

You could of course argue that clubs like Orient, Crewe and Cambridge are very similar sized, and I wouldn't disagree with that, but I thought I'd be ruthless and chance my arm a little!

Do people think I'm over or under-cooking us as an outfit?  Be interesting to see whether we think our stock has risen or fallen during the wilderness years........

In summary, though, I still see this next season being one of discovery for us and I'd see mid-table as being a big step in the right direction and a decent achievement.

Anybody got any thoughts?

Why do people talk bollox like this as its always taken from a biased viewpoint and not worth reading :P

Quoted from MrFisherman

Why do people talk bollox like this as its always taken from a biased viewpoint and not worth reading :P

Yet you still read it, AND commented!  Love you too x.

Portsmouth 16391
Plymouth 8798
Luton 8226
Blackpool 7052
Doncaster 6500
Leyton Orient 5332
Cambridge 5262
Grimsby 5057
Notts County 4860
Carlisle 4838
Crewe 4551
Wimbledon 4138
Colchester 4136
Exeter 4008
Wycombe 3984
Yeovil 3936
Hartlepool 3890
Cheltenham 3706
Mansfield 3439
Stevenage 3349
Newport 2731
Crawley 2405
Barnet 2358
Accrington 1834
Morecambe 1572

Above is the list of last season's average home attendances for us and our opponents in League Two next year. I have upped ours and Cheltenham's by 700 to adjust for increased average away support (+450) and increased home support (+250). It's not very scientific as some clubs like Barnet have other income streams, Cambridge have money left from Man Utd away, etc, but it's a crude way of showing how much we are able to compete. Each additional 1000 average home punters per game over a season is worth roughly an extra £250-300k to a club's seasonal playing budget.

So, size of club measured in home support is important. The list makes us eighth (7th if Plymouth go up) and should be a good marker of expectation for next season..

We averaged 5100 in Slade's "nearly" season so I think 5000 is achievable as an average, I can't see that many away teams who are going to bring over 500 though, Most of the teams with big support are in the far south or west coast, both long journeys, Donny, Cambridge. Notts County and Hartlepool should bring a few. I can't see more than half a dozen 500+ away crowds though.

Quoted from GrimRob

We averaged 5100 in Slade's "nearly" season so I think 5000 is achievable as an average, I can't see that many away teams who are going to bring over 500 though, Most of the teams with big support are in the far south or west coast, both long journeys, Donny, Cambridge. Notts County and Hartlepool should bring a few. I can't see more than half a dozen 500+ away crowds though.

If it`s a Saturday Pompey will bring 500+

We'll need all the support we can get because the wage bill is going to jump if we want to attract better quality players to the club. I think the average salary in League 2 is £65,000 to £85,000 a year, which is a jump from what we pay now. I think it is around £40,000 to £50,000 average at the top end of the National League. Of course, we will now have League money coming in and hopefully the attendances will increase. We must have done alright financially last season too, so i think we are more than capable of not only competing, but doing rather well if PH gets the signings right.

Quoted from ginnywings

We'll need all the support we can get because the wage bill is going to jump if we want to attract better quality players to the club. I think the average salary in League 2 is £65,000 to £85,000 a year, which is a jump from what we pay now. I think it is around £40,000 to £50,000 average at the top end of the National League. Of course, we will now have League money coming in and hopefully the attendances will increase. We musthave done alright financially last season too, so i think we are more than capable of not only competing, but doing rather well if PH gets the signings right.

League 2 players on average earn 70 k ish ... wow
I wonder how many players in the dog and duck actually do earn a grand a week any stats out there

According to Sporting Intelligence on Twitter as recently as yesterday the average League Two wage is £40,350PA. Obviously younger players will get a lot less than more senior players who can perhaps demand the £1kpw money but I'm lead to believe that the average isn't that much more than what we were paying on the 10 month "year" contracts in the Conference (top earner around £1kpw, average £700).

Quoted from LH

According to Sporting Intelligence on Twitter as recently as yesterday the average League Two wage is £40,350PA. Obviously younger players will get a lot less than more senior players who can perhaps demand the £1kpw money but I'm lead to believe that the average isn't that much more than what we were paying on the 10 month "year" contracts in the Conference (top earner around £1kpw, average £700).

These figures look more realistic

Quoted from LH

According to Sporting Intelligence on Twitter as recently as yesterday the average League Two wage is £40,350PA. Obviously younger players will get a lot less than more senior players who can perhaps demand the £1kpw money but I'm lead to believe that the average isn't that much more than what we were paying on the 10 month "year" contracts in the Conference (top earner around £1kpw, average £700).

Perhaps the use of the word average is misleading as like you say, the younger players and YT's will bring the overall average down but for the top players, even in non league, you would be looking up to the £1000 a week mark and in League 2 i would suspect £1000 up to £1500 a week for the top performers. There will also be teams that have much smaller wage budgets that also bring down the overall average in any given league. PH mentioned that some non league sides that you wouldn't suspect are paying surprisingly large wages and even said that one player went from league 1 to the national league for a better contract.

FGR must be sick looking at that. One of their fans told me that they have several players on 3k per week!

The encouraging thing looking at that list is that there are only half a dozen clubs with significantly higher crowd pulling power than us.

On that basis we should be aiming for at least top ten this year, and maybe even play offs if we get the rub of the green?

After all, we must have our annual Wembley trip.

Quoted from 75

Our six years in the abyss have damaged the clubs stature within the game. The truth is we have an ageing ground, poor training facilities. I don't know what our scouting network is like but I doubt we have a man with his ear to the ground anywhere outside of Lincolnshire. Prozone stats and monitoring? Nutritionist? (That'll be Dave Moore).

We will need to re-establish ourselves as a proper football club after so long playing pub football, we lost our 2nd best player IMO to Chesterfield, a smaller club than ourselves not so long ago. We can't compete with them or the likes of Doncaster, again a smaller club than ourselves not so long ago.

Let's be honest, look at the Chesterfield and Doncaster examples, can anyone earn a gold star by pointing out what both clubs have in common?

Is it a council that bent over backwards to help to not only improve the area but help something that is part of the fabric of those Towns with new stadia  ;)

Quoted from 75

Our six years in the abyss have damaged the clubs stature within the game. The truth is we have an ageing ground, poor training facilities. I don't know what our scouting network is like but I doubt we have a man with his ear to the ground anywhere outside of Lincolnshire. Prozone stats and monitoring? Nutritionist? (That'll be Dave Moore).

We will need to re-establish ourselves as a proper football club after so long playing pub football, we lost our 2nd best player IMO to Chesterfield, a smaller club than ourselves not so long ago. We can't compete with them or the likes of Doncaster, again a smaller club than ourselves not so long ago.

Let's be honest, look at the Chesterfield and Doncaster examples, can anyone earn a gold star by pointing out what both clubs have in common?

Is it a council that bent over backwards to help to not only improve the area but help something that is part of the fabric of those Towns with new stadia  ;)

Quoted from Marinerz93

Is it a council that bent over backwards to help to not only improve the area but help something that is part of the fabric of those Towns with new stadia  ;)

I was gonna go with funny accents, but I think you might be right.

Quoted from Nelly GTFC

I would say Leyton Orient are a similar sized club.

Go to Brisbane Road and look at the ground and the surrounding infrastructure over the road. Things have moved on a lot since we were last in League 2.

Quoted from Welwynmariner

Go to Brisbane Road and look at the ground and the surrounding infrastructure over the road. Things have moved on a lot since we were last in League 2.

I think a few of us are in for some shocks. Those clubs that have been in the league throughout our "holiday" in non-league will not have been idle...

Quoted from Marinerz93

Is it a council that bent over backwards to help to not only improve the area but help something that is part of the fabric of those Towns with new stadia  ;)

Gold star for you mate!

Quoted from 75

Our six years in the abyss have damaged the clubs stature within the game. The truth is we have an ageing ground, poor training facilities. I don't know what our scouting network is like but I doubt we have a man with his ear to the ground anywhere outside of Lincolnshire. Prozone stats and monitoring? Nutritionist? (That'll be Dave Moore).

We will need to re-establish ourselves as a proper football club after so long playing pub football, we lost our 2nd best player IMO to Chesterfield, a smaller club than ourselves not so long ago. We can't compete with them or the likes of Doncaster, again a smaller club than ourselves not so long ago.

Let's be honest, look at the Chesterfield and Doncaster examples, can anyone earn a gold star by pointing out what both clubs have in common?

They both feature regularly on BBC Radio Sheffield....do I get a gold star too Vicar?  ;)