VAR at Southampton

    Not sure if this has been discussed on the fishy but here goes anyway.

    VAR,  love it or hate it? personally i think it is good for somethings (not many) and really bad for most. GTFC are going to come across it again , as we did at crystal palace to our detriment.
   I really  think if VAR has not been used in previous rounds it should not be used at all but it will be and we will be bemoaning how cr*p it is.

VAR is very marmite. It ruins a lot of aspects of the game and just isn’t used consistently. The Tottenham game yesterday there was a very obvious handball but nothing was done about it. Yet, in other games you’ll see the most farcical of decisions given. I’d say it’s the people operating/interpreting VAR that’s the issue not necessarily VAR itself.

How on earth can you have a competition with variable rules at different stadiums? That is the first thing, but in any event VAR has just swapped one set of problems for another - whenever human beings are involved there will be mistakes either on the field or in the VAR control rooms.

What worries me is it doesn't seem to matter how many controversies it causes, the powers that be have deemed they have decided VAR is the way to go so that's that.

If Southampton score against us and it goes to VAR and is ruled out for offside I doubt many of us will be complaining about VAR.

It is what it is.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

How on earth can you have a competition with variable rules at different stadiums? That is the first thing, but in any event VAR has just swapped one set of problems for another - whenever human beings are involved there will be mistakes either on the field or in the VAR control rooms.

What worries me is it doesn't seem to matter how many controversies it causes, the powers that be have deemed they have decided VAR is the way to go so that's that.

Yeah I said this after the Palace game the other year , it doesn’t seem fair that the rules of the game or the way it’s refereed can change depending on which ground it’s played at

I do think it’s somewhat controversial and unequal. Seems to have been little talked about too.

It should be used at ALL FA Cup games or not at all in my opinion.

I think it favours the smaller clubs overall. The biggest influence on referees has been shown to be the crowd. It's a difficult thing to get right and is steadily improving. Technology is accepted in other sports and they all have differences depending on whether it's in place or not. Even at Wimbledon, not all the courts have Hawkeye and I am pretty sure not all county cricket games use technology to assist referees.

But I think for a game against a big crowd on average it will favour us, although obviously it's not guaranteed and could work the other way like at Palace.

Like I said in the other thread on this, there’s too much “grey area” with VAR and all it does is provide refs with more time to think about the consequences of their decision.

There’s zero, ZERO, chance that a ref would favour us over a Prem club on a 50/50 decision if it meant them going out of the FA Cup.

Quoted from Les Brechin

It should be used at ALL FA Cup games or not at all in my opinion.

All isn’t really an option, given the cost of the infrastructure involved to service VAR. But using it only where both sides are in the Premier League seems fair and sensible.

The issue with VAR is that it brings an extreme level of scrutiny that players aren’t used to in League Two and the like. Routine shirt pulls that are fair game in the lower leagues are all of a sudden penalty inducing. Players will have to adapt their game accordingly, which requires a layer of conscious thought that is yet another disadvantage when coming up against more talented, quicker thinking players.

There may be a sense of inequality between the show courts and lesser ones of Wimbledon, but technologies like Hawkeye don’t change the way players think and play - they just aid very close decisions. For me, VAR can only work against non-PL teams who are not used to playing with it week-in, week-out, and I’d be very surprised if we come out on the right side of any key, video assisted decisions a week on Wednesday.

Quoted from Poojah

All isn’t really an option, given the cost of the infrastructure involved to service VAR. But using it only where both sides are in the Premier League seems fair and sensible.

The issue with VAR is that it brings an extreme level of scrutiny that players aren’t used to in League Two and the like. Routine shirt pulls that are fair game in the lower leagues are all of a sudden penalty inducing. Players will have to adapt their game accordingly, which requires a layer of conscious thought that is yet another disadvantage when coming up against more talented, quicker thinking players.

There may be a sense of inequality between the show courts and lesser ones of Wimbledon, but technologies like Hawkeye don’t change the way players think and play - they just aid very close decisions. For me, VAR can only work against non-PL teams who are not used to playing with it week-in, week-out, and I’d be very surprised if we come out on the right side of any key, video assisted decisions a week on Wednesday.

It's a good point but if we're playing at this level we have to accept the things that come with this level. To use the tennis analogy we're on Centre Court when we don't even normally get past the qualifiers.

Quoted from promotion plaice

If Southampton score against us and it goes to VAR and is ruled out for offside I doubt many of us will be complaining about VAR.

It is what it is.

Correct the nature of the beast  as i see it the PL  have it all the time us on the lower leagues can sometimes get away with murder shirt pulls etc ,because the Ref and "Lineo's" should have gone to specsavers.
GTFC  have 3 homes and over a week before we invade the South Coast hopefull Paul and the team have had a coffee over this.
UTM.

VAR in general I think is needed, but we are in a transition period, like with anything, where there will be problems to iron out in due course. To get VAR up to standard then that transition period is a necessary evil.

However, in terms of some games having it and some not, or even having it in a competition where teams compete that don't regularly use it, I fundamentally disagree. It is a different game with VAR in use. Whether that's the way it should be or not is up for debate, but that is the way it is.

EFL Clubs play a completely different way to premiership clubs, and a lot of it is down to the elements in the equation. For example, holding at corners, diving, etc. Yes, all of this is technically 'cheating', but if that's a part of a teams game used successfully throughout the season, and more poignantly in 1 round, then it should be the same in another round.

Prem clubs have the advantage of familiarity with the technology and the elements of decision making in the game, so I only see this benefiting them.

Quoted from RobDef1

VAR in general I think is needed, but we are in a transition period, like with anything, where there will be problems to iron out in due course. To get VAR up to standard then that transition period is a necessary evil.

However, in terms of some games having it and some not, or even having it in a competition where teams compete that don't regularly use it, I fundamentally disagree. It is a different game with VAR in use. Whether that's the way it should be or not is up for debate, but that is the way it is.

EFL Clubs play a completely different way to premiership clubs, and a lot of it is down to the elements in the equation. For example, holding at corners, diving, etc. Yes, all of this is technically 'cheating', but if that's a part of a teams game used successfully throughout the season, and more poignantly in 1 round, then it should be the same in another round.

Prem clubs have the advantage of familiarity with the technology and the elements of decision making in the game, so I only see this benefiting them.

It's been around 5 years and it's now worse than it was when it came in. That's more than enough time to iron out teething problems. The issues are fundamental and the solution is staring us in the face.

Quoted from Mariner_09

It's been around 5 years and it's now worse than it was when it came in. That's more than enough time to iron out teething problems. The issues are fundamental and the solution is staring us in the face.

Ok, so what is that solution? Scrap it? Because this thread would suggest it is still up for debate, which would suggest we haven't reached a definitive solution at all.

I also disagree that it is worse now than when it first came in.

I think it has been correct an overwhelmingly more amount of times than incorrect, but of course only incorrect or dubious decisions are noted.

Quoted from RobDef1

Ok, so what is that solution? Scrap it? Because this thread would suggest it is still up for debate, which would suggest we haven't reached a definitive solution at all.

I also disagree that it is worse now than when it first came in.

I think it has been correct an overwhelmingly more amount of times than incorrect, but of course only incorrect or dubious decisions are noted.

I honestly believe the solution is to use it more sparingly, only in the event of decisions that are so categorically wrong they need to be corrected (y’know, like not sending off a goalkeeper for saving a goal-bound shot 5 yards outside of his box, or allowing a big nosed, scouse striker to punch the ball into the back of the net), avoid re-referring marginal decisions and allow football to be perfectly imperfect.

But that will never happen.

I personally think we need an 'Umpire's Call' kind of thing for offsides. When VAR has spent 5 minutes pissing around drawing lines which show that a defender's toe was probably playing the attacker on, it doesn't really help the flow of the game much. If the incident looks level to the naked eye and without drawing any fancy lines, call it onside. Before VAR, if you had seen a shot on camera which showed the players level, there wouldn't have been any complaints about a toe, or a heel or whatever playing them on or offside.

It would mean fewer goals were denied for offside and should mean the benefit returns to the teams on the front foot.

VAR can be helpful for checking for blatant fouls missed in the lead up to goals (unless the VAR officials miss them as well!) and also for clocking serious foul play which might have been missed by the officials, so it still has a use, but the interminable delays you often see don't help the spectacle of the game.

I think it should be scrapped completely (it's shit), but as that's not going to happen, we'll just have to think of next week as good preparation for our first Premier League season later this decade.

I tend to agree that VAR probably favours the PL side over an L2 team, but let's not get too hung up about it.

A bigger advantage for the PL side is that all their players will be better than all the players in the L2 team they're up against.  

Southampton will need to have on 'off night' or VAR isn't going to be a significant factor. And if we're to stay in the game it will
require tons of pressing and pressurizing by Town ... maybe VAR will provide a few breathers for us!

For me, VAR sucks. I'd scrap it completely.
I used to tell myself that diabolical refereeing decisions were due to the ref having just one sight of the incident, and only a few
seconds to decide how to call it.

Depressingly, VAR has shown that our game is too often officiated by idiots. VAR and the idiots are here to stay though...  

As VAR is assumed to assist the premiership clubs as they are used to it , I bet the ref appointed will be a premiership ref. Now some would say that’s because there the best, in my opinion that is debatable, but again it helps the premiership club as we all know how every challenge is always a free kick to which ever player screams and rolls about more, whereas our cloggers in league 2 still see the  physical side of the game as something you have to win.

My nephew worked on VAR and he says it was initially just to be used for goal line technology - it should have stayed that way. If linesmen are up with the play as well as the ref. then 3 pairs of eyes for fouls and offsides should be sufficient. They are all supposed to be in radio  contact

Quoted from golfer

My nephew worked on VAR and he says it was initially just to be used for goal line technology - it should have stayed that way. If linesmen are up with the play as well as the ref. then 3 pairs of eyes for fouls and offsides should be sufficient. They are all supposed to be in radio  contact

This!

Keep VAR for incidents in the penalty area or serious foul play.

Quoted from Gaffer58

As VAR is assumed to assist the premiership clubs as they are used to it , I bet the ref appointed will be a premiership ref. Now some would say that’s because there the best, in my opinion that is debatable, but again it helps the premiership club as we all know how every challenge is always a free kick to which ever player screams and rolls about more, whereas our cloggers in league 2 still see the  physical side of the game as something you have to win.

Refs are appointed based on the level of the highest team. Would be a L2 ref if we were playing a non league dog and duck team like Scunthorpe.

As for VAR it’s utter male masturbation, but if it is to stay I think each team should have one or two challenges per game, otherwise it is ignored except for goal line incidents.

VAR can't be any worse than some of the refs we've had lately in our league games.

All our players will have seen enough VAR games on TV to know how it works. The bottom line is that sneaky stuff in the penalty area will very likely be spotted and punished, so be very careful what you try to get away with!

One of the things that annoys me most about VAR was that Lineker, Neville, Keane, Jenas and all that lot were crying out for it. Saying how ridiculous it was that they had it Germany and that the Prem needed to hang its head in shame for depriving the poor top tier fans of England of this wondrous breakthrough that would solve any and all match officiating decisions. Fast forward to us having it here and they can't get enough of slating it. Seemingly oblivious to the role they played in rushing its rollout and implementation in this country.

The last time we played with it we had a yellow card overturned to a red after 2 minutes. We didn't know at the time this rule applied. They will know how to take advantage of it where as we only have to forget for one moment and we could be in trouble.
It's more likely to favour them rather than us, but, you never know

Quoted from mimma

The last time we played with it we had a yellow card overturned to a red after 2 minutes. We didn't know at the time this rule applied.

Which rule? I don’t think you were meant to tackle this, even before VAR.

[img]https://i.ibb.co/ZJyXywh/E8-D7672-E-E814-42-FC-8918-6-AB0047714-A4.jpg[/img]

As disappointing as it was at the time, it was a red card offence and the ref should have sent him off in the first place - it’s a reasonable VAR case study if anything.

Quoted from Poojah

Which rule? I don’t think you were meant to tackle this, even before VAR.

[img]https://i.ibb.co/ZJyXywh/E8-D7672-E-E814-42-FC-8918-6-AB0047714-A4.jpg[/img]

As disappointing as it was at the time, it was a red card offence and the ref should have sent him off in the first place - it’s a reasonable VAR case study if anything.

That is exactly what is wrong with VAR.

Ultra slow motion, or a still shot like that makes it look like a full blooded, pre meditated lunge to take out the player and looks a red all day long.

In real time, Townsend had turned him inside out and Fox was playing a ball that suddenly wasn't there due to the superior skill of a Premier league player against a league 2 defender in the very first minute of a huge game for the league 2 side.

One of the most experienced refs in the league took all that into account and decided on a yellow, to give a signal to keep your adrenalin in check and calm down or you will be off.

A ref in the control room looked at it in ultra slow motion / still and overruled all that and told him to change his mind and give a red.

This is just one problem with VAR as it doesn't take nuances into account.

It's not great currently but it's not going away.

Who knows, in ten years or so, maybe it won't be be some operator at Stockley Park that analyses the footage but some sort of artificial intelligence. If so that decision would be pretty quick although the decision would still be made by the referee if the probability that the AI analysis is correct is too low.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

That is exactly what is wrong with VAR.

Ultra slow motion, or a still shot like that makes it look like a full blooded, pre meditated lunge to take out the player and looks a red all day long.

In real time, Townsend had turned him inside out and Fox was playing a ball that suddenly wasn't there due to the superior skill of a Premier league player against a league 2 defender in the very first minute of a huge game for the league 2 side.

One of the most experienced refs in the league took all that into account and decided on a yellow, to give a signal to keep your adrenalin in check and calm down or you will be off.

A ref in the control room looked at it in ultra slow motion / still and overruled all that and told him to change his mind and give a red.

This is just one problem with VAR as it doesn't take nuances into account.

Absolutely agree that VAR lacks nuance and room for interpretation, but in that instance Fox had gone over the ball, or at least over where the ball had been. For me, anyway.

People will get used to it, many are already who have grown up with it. People will look through rose-tinted glasses about the good old days. Hand of God?

VAR was introduced to get more decisions right.

Getting more decisions right is a fair enough ambition, but it's driven hard by a game in which managers are under huge pressure, which has been created by wealth.

One bad call from the officials could cost you a game, a season or even your contract.

The pressure for officials to be correct is immense. VAR is meant to assist with this but there is no way on earth that we'll ever achieve 100% accuracy in decisions because technology isn't making the decisions.

This still sits with humans.

We all want better referees but as a previous poster said, I think cricket have got it right with umpire's call. We're sort of halfway there but if the on-field decision is offside, and the margins being analysed with lines are touching, then you stick with the referees call.

Football is unscripted and unpredictable. No two goals are exactly the same, anything can happen and any situations can arise. One referee will interpret a foul differently to another due to very subtle variations, match context, etc.

For binary stuff, i.e. is the ball over the line or not, tech is great. We can depend on it 100%. Everything else tends to be subjective and that's a question technology can only aid with, not answer.

In short, VAR is not the answer, but I understand why they're giving it a good go.

The argument in favour of VAR was when a ref drops a clanger and VAR can correct it. Sadly VAR has encroached into almost every part of a match, and the constant delays whilst lines are drawn and multiple replays has sucked the joy out of the game. Instead of controversial referee decisions, we now have controversial VAR decisions, except we now have a delay before reaching it.

I’d scrap it completely, but sadly that will never happen.

In answer to Poojah, I was referring to the fact that the VAR officials could overturn a yellow, and turn it to a red. This one sneaked in, after the World cup, so nobody at the time knew that they could. I remember we were trying to fathom out what was going on when it happened. We didn't have a clue and neither did the commentators.

Quoted from 137

I tend to agree that VAR probably favours the PL side over an L2 team, but let's not get too hung up about it.

A bigger advantage for the PL side is that all their players will be better than all the players in the L2 team they're up against.  

Southampton will need to have on 'off night' or VAR isn't going to be a significant factor. And if we're to stay in the game it will
require tons of pressing and pressurizing by Town ... maybe VAR will provide a few breathers for us!

For me, VAR sucks. I'd scrap it completely.
I used to tell myself that diabolical refereeing decisions were due to the ref having just one sight of the incident, and only a few
seconds to decide how to call it.

Depressingly, VAR has shown that our game is too often officiated by idiots. VAR and the idiots are here to stay though...  

Spot on

VAR doesn’t work and hasn’t done what it intended, but with the levels of investment, they’ll keep pushing it.

Several referees have acknowledged that VAR has impacted negatively on the ability to referee and the notion of ‘on field’ calls from players/teams means a huge law change.

VAR wasn’t introduced for the good of the game, it was introduced to appease the money men and arm chair fans. Yet again, this weekend we’ve seen several decisions that we were told would be eradicated or given correctly, still wrong. There’ll always be human error so why bother having millions of pounds worth of kit, we should’ve left well alone. There are many issues with the game, but in truth, a few bad decisions, which we know equal themsleves out over a season weren’t the biggest problem.

And now, what we see is a varied game. The fundamentals of football was that at every level the laws were the same and premise and the actual game were the same. All that varied was ability, that’s no longer the case with the implementation of VAR, and only at the top level.

The FA cup is no longer an even playing field either; we play at Southampton, we have the use of VAR, we play at BP, we don’t. That’s not fair, to us or other teams in the tournament.

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

That is exactly what is wrong with VAR.

Ultra slow motion, or a still shot like that makes it look like a full blooded, pre meditated lunge to take out the player and looks a red all day long.

In real time, Townsend had turned him inside out and Fox was playing a ball that suddenly wasn't there due to the superior skill of a Premier league player against a league 2 defender in the very first minute of a huge game for the league 2 side.

One of the most experienced refs in the league took all that into account and decided on a yellow, to give a signal to keep your adrenalin in check and calm down or you will be off.

A ref in the control room looked at it in ultra slow motion / still and overruled all that and told him to change his mind and give a red.

This is just one problem with VAR as it doesn't take nuances into account.

Exactly. The ref saw the foul and applied the punishment as he saw it. I could have understood it if the ref hadn't seen the offence, then the VAR would have had validity. But he did see it so VAR wasn't needed. I thought VAR was intended for offences and incidents missed by the pitch officials.

But it was a clear and obvious red card? Therefore a clear and obvious mistake by the ref not to give it. If it hadn't have been given the other way, we'd all have been complaining.

Quoted from Mariner93er

But it was a clear and obvious red card? Therefore a clear and obvious mistake by the ref not to give it. If it hadn't have been given the other way, we'd all have been complaining.

But has there ever been a similar enough tackle in the prem since VAR and its not been given? Genuinely asking as I don't know as don't watch the prem. If so then it isn't a clear and obvious error as another VAR team of refs has come to a different conclusion.

I've seen loads of stuff were at world cups etc were VAR decisionbis given one way and analysts in the studio disagree so plenty of time the decisions are not just 'clear and obvious' mistakes.

Quoted from toontown

But has there ever been a similar enough tackle in the prem since VAR and its not been given? Genuinely asking as I don't know as don't watch the prem. If so then it isn't a clear and obvious error as another VAR team of refs has come to a different conclusion.

I've seen loads of stuff were at world cups etc were VAR decisionbis given one way and analysts in the studio disagree so plenty of time the decisions are not just 'clear and obvious' mistakes.

This is the point. The ref didn't make a mistake because he saw the foul. He just interpreted the nature of the foul and gave, in his opinion, the correct punishment. If the same incident took place and the ref gave a red card and subsequent VAR analysis showed it wasn't as severe as to justify a red , then would that red be overturned by the VAR?

At the weekend, a Manyoo player stuck his studs into the side of the knee of one of the Leicester defenders after timing his challenge wrong. VAR checked it and didn't even think it worth a yellow card. Looked a red to me. If the referee had seen it properly and sent the player off, there wouldn't have been much complaint.

I suspect any such challenges against Southampton will be penalised by VAR. Let's hope we don't give them the chance to send somebody off or award a soft penalty.

Craig Pawson is VAR on Wednesday

Thomas Bramall ref.

Laura Woods is presenting our match on ITV4 and Seb Hutchinson & Ally McCoist are on commentary.

McCoist on co-comms makes me almost glad I can't make it - what a man!

Quoted from ska face

Like I said in the other thread on this, there’s too much “grey area” with VAR and all it does is provide refs with more time to think about the consequences of their decision.

There’s zero, ZERO, chance that a ref would favour us over a Prem club on a 50/50 decision if it meant them going out of the FA Cup.

lmao who is this idiot?

Quoted from promotion plaice

If Southampton score against us and it goes to VAR and is ruled out for offside I doubt many of us will be complaining about VAR.

It is what it is.

Prophetic post of the week award...

VAR at Southampton.
Thank you god!

Can I just say, I'm sorry if I must come across as a bit of a sore-loser. I'm not originally from Southampton but I am a Saints fan and am very much interested in how they're doing.

They've been all out of sorts lately and I'm hoping they pull through. But that wasn't to take anything from tonight, it wasn't good enough. You guys played well and deserved it. Brighton are a tough cookie, having a great season (almost doesn't need to be mentioned) they won't be beat unless you really attack them.