A question

I asked this question on a different discussion last week . The response I got seemed a little confused so here goes

Are we any better on the pitch then the last time we came up from the NL ?

Forget Fenty
Forget AP and JS
Forget all the brilliant improvements around the ground and training ground
Don't consider the Future
Forget Back room staff

I'm talking about performances on the pitch , that's all .

It's just a question that's all . My answer is No , we are no better on the pitch than last time we came up.

Okay well i’ll say back to you, what do you expect?

PH did an excellent job last season getting us back up at the 1st time of asking. We all said, before the season started, we’d take mid table. We are mid table

You cannot just expect success. I dont know if this idea comes from the growth of social media, but there seems to be this obsession that you must expect success instantly. Football doesnt work like that, things take time.

Am i happy with the home form? No I’m not, but not going to home games during covid, seeing us relegated, it hurt me beyond words, im more than content to consolidate this season, and build again. A bit of patience  hurt no-one

I would say our squad is as good as it was last time, better? Maybe not. But you can't ask a question without any facts. Still forgetting the other people away from the footballing side..
Last time we went up we was expecting/ expected to go up and was more equipped and ready for it. This time it was our first season and in transition and didn't expect promotion.
This is just one of the things you need to consider

Last time around we had a proven goal scorer in Bogle, who was firing them in week after week. The rest of the squad was of broadly similar ability, but that’s the difference that a goal scorer makes

How do you define ‘better’? How can you ignore the other aspects when they do heavily influence each other? Opinion on this will be all over the place depending on your expectations of where you want to be.

My initial thought was ‘no’, the 16/17 side was ‘better’.

Having now reminded myself who was in that squad, I would only take the strikers (a younger, fitter, more motivated Bogle, Kayden Jackson (although, only the current version) and Vernon (but only because we don’t currently have a fit CF)).

Possibly Danny Andrew at LB.

The rest of them, I prefer the 22/23 vintage.

Everyone is aware of the deficiencies in the current squad and hopefully we can rectify them in the window. As Hagrid says, it’s not a mad rush for L1.

Piano piano.

Quoted from blundellpork

Last time around we had a proven goal scorer in Bogle, who was firing them in week after week. The rest of the squad was of broadly similar ability, but that’s the difference that a goal scorer makes

This. Without Bogle that year, we would have finished bottom third.

Quoted from Knut Anders Fosters Voles

My initial thought was ‘no’, the 16/17 side was ‘better’.

Having now reminded myself who was in that squad, I would only take the strikers (a younger, fitter, more motivated Bogle, Kayden Jackson (although, only the current version) and Vernon (but only because we don’t currently have a fit CF)).

Possibly Danny Andrew at LB.

The rest of them, I prefer the 22/23 vintage.

Everyone is aware of the deficiencies in the current squad and hopefully we can rectify them in the window. As Hagrid says, it’s not a mad rush for L1.

Piano piano.

I'd snap your hand off for a Danny Andrew-alike. Glennon and Amos are both decent enough players in their own ways, but Andrew was good enough that season that we didn't even need to play with a left-sided midfielder half the time.

Wee finished 6th National League last season
Then got promoted through (let's face it) a series of 100/1 events that won't happen again in our lifetime
So, all things considered, I'd say we were doing OK
Only thing wrong - no consistent and clinical cutting edge
And I'm not talking every match - won't happen at this level - but instead of 1 in 4 matches it needs to be 1 in 3

Mid table will eb fine as we grow as a club on and off pitch - but it leads to inevitable highs and lows and at the moment we are all a bit fed up, nervous, anxious especially when we remember the run we had last season

Our record is W6 D6 L6 - perfectly sums up why we are where we are

But I do believe if we had a striker like Donny's the other week (sorry, forget his name) we'd be a lot higher

Still nearer the play-offs (points wise) than we are to the relegation places.

I think we’re not as good as we were in 2016. The difference is it took about half a season to throw all the momentum away back then. I don’t think that will happen now. I expect a good transfer window in January and to build a promotion capable squad in the summer.

Comparing the 16/17 and 22/23 sides shows how much of a difference Omar made.

Crocombe v Macca

It’s Max, his handling, kicking and lack of errors make him an easy pick over Macca

Davies/Mills v Michee
Gowling/Collins v Waterfall/Smith/Maher
Andrew v Glennon

So we’ve got three centre halves better than any of those from 16/17. I think Michee is less limited than Davies, not as clever or good on the ball but I’d rather have Michee. Glennon v Andrew is an interesting one. Andrew was defensively vulnerable at first but improved quite dramatically as the season improved. On balance, I’d take him over Glennon for his extra athleticism

The midfield difference is massive:

Green v Comley
Morris v McAllister
Harry v Berrett
Holohan v Summerfield

We never saw McAllister for any meaningful period so I’m picking none of our 16/17 players.

Vernon v Taylor
Bogle v Orsi
Jackson v McAtee/Richardson/Simmonds/Bim

Again, if you want 4 forwards, I’m probably saying 3 of our current crop and then Omar. Although something happened with Jackson cos he’s gone on to have an excellent career at a much higher level than us.

So, on balance, I’m only taking 2 players from that squads and putting them into our current squad, let alone team. It just shows what that one top striker for the level will do.

Think the initial Danny Collins would be a good shout for a starting place and think we shouldn’t be influenced by his last season when his legs had probably seen better days.

Quoted from Lincoln Mariner 56

Think the initial Danny Collins would be a good shout for a starting place and think we shouldn’t be influenced by his last season when his legs had probably seen better days.

Waterfall, Smith, Maher and Collins would be a great set of options. If I had to pick two though I'd say Smith and Waterfall, Waterfall for his threat in the opposition box as much as anything. Smudge cos he's just a class act.

The weaknesses in the 16/17 squad were not shown up because Bogle was in the form of his life. He was literally the most deadly striker in the FL at that stage and single handedly won us games. That squad would have been nowhere near the play offs without Bogle.

Many of the other signings were pretty poor. James Berrett, Ashley Chambers, Andrew Boyce, Sean McAllister, Rhys Browne and Tom Bolarinwa were all various shades of useless. Even some of the "better" signings weren't great such as Zak Mills, Luke Summerfield and Scott Vernon. I'd only take Danny Andrew over any of the signings made this season and the strikers because we're so reliant on an unfit Taylor.

The issue this season is that whilst none of the signings are useless they are all very workman like and we lack that little bit of quality in the final third. I still don't particularly rate any of our wide players other than Khan and PH has let himself down by not getting in any suitable striker to either partner or replace Taylor. If this squad had an inform Bogle up front, it would be in the top seven.

I think a more pertinent question is whether the current team is better than the settled team that won the 3 play off games?

We did well to keep most of that squad together but I am not sure any of the summer signings have really impressed.

I am hoping for a repeat of last season that excellent January signings reinvigorate the team and the second half of the season is more settled.

And there you go...   A lot of people saying Bogle made the difference with his goal scoring prowess...   which does not square up with all those who said one player does not make a difference but quite obviously it does...  So i say we should not be scared to invest in that player who would make a difference and we should find the money to buy that player...

Quoted from lew chaterleys lover

I think a more pertinent question is whether the current team is better than the settled team that won the 3 play off games?

Think the big difference between now & the PO run is Fox in midfield and a settled & consistent front two.

At this stage last season Fox had really failed to impress and was finding his feet in an unsettled midfield alongside Hunt, Clifton and Coke. By the end of the season he was a completely different player.

The front two that dragged us into and through the POs in McAtee/Taylor haven’t played a single minute together this year, and their replacements haven’t been close to their level.

I just hope we’re able to get targets in the door early in Jan and settled, rather than drifting for a month then spending another month waiting for them to gel. Bit of consistency in the middle would also be a big help.

Quoted from ska face

Think the big difference between now & the PO run is Fox in midfield and a settled & consistent front two.

At this stage last season Fox had really failed to impress and was finding his feet in an unsettled midfield alongside Hunt, Clifton and Coke. By the end of the season he was a completely different player.

The front two that dragged us into and through the POs in McAtee/Taylor haven’t played a single minute together this year, and their replacements haven’t been close to their level.

I just hope we’re able to get targets in the door early in Jan and settled, rather than drifting for a month then spending another month waiting for them to gel. Bit of consistency in the middle would also be a big help.

Nail on head. Green and Holohan have had some good spells but the midfield in general has been very ordinary. Fox bossed all three play off games.

Quoted from ska face

Think the big difference between now & the PO run is Fox in midfield and a settled & consistent front two.

At this stage last season Fox had really failed to impress and was finding his feet in an unsettled midfield alongside Hunt, Clifton and Coke. By the end of the season he was a completely different player.

The front two that dragged us into and through the POs in McAtee/Taylor haven’t played a single minute together this year, and their replacements haven’t been close to their level.

I just hope we’re able to get targets in the door early in Jan and settled, rather than drifting for a month then spending another month waiting for them to gel. Bit of consistency in the middle would also be a big help.

Nailed it. Ben Fox was possibly MoM in all three play off games. I suspect we’d still be non league without him.

Quoted from Mariner_09

Waterfall for his threat in the opposition box as much as anything. Smudge cos he's just a class act.

Hes not much of a threat in L2, scores very few at this level. It seems L2 defences are more switched on to his little pulling off the defender and running into space routine.

He's the only man in the squad that I wouldn't fancy a tear up with though  

I think we are worse than last time but only just

We have better players for sure, but no focal point and therefore we are not as effective as a team at the moment. Getting McAtee back and then losing Taylor is just bad luck.

PH couldn't wait to leave last time because of not getting the off field staff he wanted, but this time he will stay and build something I reckon.

He sorted us in Jan last season and he probably will again this season. We fell apart when he left last time and we ended up back in non league but things are different now.

We haven't quite gelled yet and I think we need to catch up to the fact we got back into the league ahead of time and possibly have a few who are not quite up it.

Quoted from ginnywings

We have better players for sure, but no focal point and therefore we are not as effective as a team at the moment. Getting McAtee back and then losing Taylor is just bad luck.

PH couldn't wait to leave last time because of not getting the off field staff he wanted, but this time he will stay and build something I reckon.

He sorted us in Jan last season and he probably will again this season. We fell apart when he left last time and we ended up back in non league but things are different now.

We haven't quite gelled yet and I think we need to catch up to the fact we got back into the league ahead of time and possibly have a few who are not quite up it.

It's a source of frustration that he couldn't quite find that illusive, younger, fitter, more mobile and bigger goal threat version of Taylor. I'm adamant that had he been available, Hursty would've signed him. I doubt the original plan was to go into the season with Taylor as our first choice striker, let alone our only real option.

Quoted from Mariner_09

It's a source of frustration that he couldn't quite find that illusive, younger, fitter, more mobile and bigger goal threat version of Taylor. I'm adamant that had he been available, Hursty would've signed him. I doubt the original plan was to go into the season with Taylor as our first choice striker, let alone our only real option.

Younger , fitter, mobile and bigger version? In other words nothing like Taylor

Quoted from denni266

I think we are worse than last time but only just

You would. Mr positive, top laugh at parties. Surprised you’ve not been posting Hurst out garbage and saying it’s the worst ever.

Quoted from ginnywings

We have better players for sure, but no focal point and therefore we are not as effective as a team at the moment. Getting McAtee back and then losing Taylor is just bad luck.

PH couldn't wait to leave last time because of not getting the off field staff he wanted, but this time he will stay and build something I reckon.

He sorted us in Jan last season and he probably will again this season. We fell apart when he left last time and we ended up back in non league but things are different now.

We haven't quite gelled yet and I think we need to catch up to the fact we got back into the league ahead of time and possibly have a few who are not quite up it.

I agree. I think we are better, player for player. We are competitive and are not far off a top six side. I’m not worried that we might struggle or will have to look downwards.

Quoted from supertown

Younger , fitter, mobile and bigger version? In other words nothing like Taylor

Well Taylor was young and fit once.

Quoted from chaos33

I agree. I think we are better, player for player. We are competitive and are not far off a top six side. I’m not worried that we might struggle or will have to look downwards.

I think we are better but I think the league is better. Last time, there were quite a few weak teams, The only really poor team I’ve seen were Hartlepool and we contrived to lose to them.

By the time he’d left, Bogle had scored 19 of our 39 goals that season. Without his goals we’d scored 20 in 33 games.

After 18 league games we’ve conceded a goal a game and scored 20. At the same point in 16/17 we’d conceded 22 and scored 24. At 18 games in 16/17 we were 6th on 26 points, this year we’re 16th on 24 points. So same goal difference and 2 points less, but 10 positions worse off. Amazing really. Then we were 7pts off the automatic spots, now we’re 7pts off the playoffs (admittedly with a game in hand).

Not sure what it all means really. There are 5pts between us in 16th and 18th now, whereas 5pts back then would’ve dropped us down from 6th to 16th. So maybe there’s a bit of a group at the bottom getting cut away this year with Orient & Stevenage running away, meaning the middle’s more congested. Back then was a lot tighter across the whole division.

The only thing that can really be drawn from all that is that we need to sign Bogle in January.

The squad last time round was 5 years in the making and had Omar Bogle who we got a very good fee for. This year we have McAtee but his shoulder has prevented us having him for a large portion of the season.

Getting out of the NL within 3 years is a great achievement, never mind at the first attempt. I dare say the likes of Holohan and JMD were signed mid season to be a huge part of a promotion push this season. Ben Fox was a huge part of our team at the back end of last season that was a huge loss that I don't think we've fully replaced.

I do think though that we are doing just fine, I'm very happy with the team of staff Hurst is building that will pay dividends in the medium-long term. The owners proved last year that they trust him and Hurst knows there are very few, if any, clubs in the country that would afford him the time our owners are.

I think some people have very short memories when it comes to stuff like this. We had the most in form striker in L2 at that point probably and the season pretty much ended once we cashed in on him. We lost top players like Amond and Nolan from the previous season and replaced them with jokers like James Berrett, Tom Bolarinwa, Scott Vernon and Shaun Tuton, all of which have gone on to do nothing of note since. We had Kayden Jackson on loan who did go on to better but was pretty ineffective for us. For every bright spark like Danny Andrew you had a Luke Summerfield, Andrew Boyce or Gavin Gunning. Sam Jones looked good but his career fell apart after he left us so maybe we dodged a bullet. Jamey Osbourne I'd maybe take and that's about it.

Failure was mainly blamed on not being able to keep a successful squad together and a successful manager leaving. Both of which didn't happen this season for the most part. The squad as a whole is much better we just have not managed to have that striker up front who scores week in, week out yet.

What the OP did not say was.

How long did it take us to get back in the league last time compared to this time.

Let's see how far we progress in the same period.

I don't think we did very well last time but who knows where we will be in another five years.

League one at least imo.

Quoted from jamesgtfc

The squad last time round was 5 years in the making and had Omar Bogle who we got a very good fee for. This year we have McAtee but his shoulder has prevented us having him for a large portion of the season.

Getting out of the NL within 3 years is a great achievement, never mind at the first attempt. I dare say the likes of Holohan and JMD were signed mid season to be a huge part of a promotion push this season. Ben Fox was a huge part of our team at the back end of last season that was a huge loss that I don't think we've fully replaced.

I do think though that we are doing just fine, I'm very happy with the team of staff Hurst is building that will pay dividends in the medium-long term. The owners proved last year that they trust him and Hurst knows there are very few, if any, clubs in the country that would afford him the time our owners are.

There were only a few players that had been here for a while, I'd say only 4 of our starting line up were there the season before. Last season, there were 8 in the squad who had been here the season before, which I think is similar to the 2015 squad.

When it clicks, it clicks. And realistically, we were lucky more than good last season. This team is better, but I struggle to see us scoring goals even if we signed a good striker, we create very few chances. Bogle was so good he did it on his own, and McAtee will have to do that if we're to stay well clear of danger. The workman like performances aren't enough alone.

Quoted from pen penfras

There were only a few players that had been here for a while, I'd say only 4 of our starting line up were there the season before. Last season, there were 8 in the squad who had been here the season before, which I think is similar to the 2015 squad.

When it clicks, it clicks. And realistically, we were lucky more than good last season. This team is better, but I struggle to see us scoring goals even if we signed a good striker, we create very few chances. Bogle was so good he did it on his own, and McAtee will have to do that if we're to stay well clear of danger. The workman like performances aren't enough alone.

I’d say that is a very stingy assessment. We were ‘Lucky more than good’ last season? Really disagree. We were super strong when it really counted. You think we’ll need McAtee to ‘do a Bogle’ to steer clear of danger?
We’ve done pretty well without him thus far and I don’t think anyone thinks we are at risk of struggling. Could it be that the likes of you, with your loyalties, have an axe to grind, which stops you being objective?

Quoted from grimsby pete

What the OP did not say was.

How long did it take us to get back in the league last time compared to this time.

Let's see how far we progress in the same period.

I don't think we did very well last time but who knows where we will be in another five years.

League one at least imo.

No other factors are up for discussion. It was a simple question that's all. Are we better on the pitch than the last time we came up ?
A few posters have responded with good answers and not deviated to look for an argument

Quoted from chaos33

You would. Mr positive, top laugh at parties. Surprised you’ve not been posting Hurst out garbage and saying it’s the worst ever.

Oh hello stalker again.. No at this moment i dont want Hurst out yet , Will see what he gets in the jan sales first. Any way  hows your lumbago still making you grumpy ???  

Quoted from It Bites

No other factors are up for discussion. It was a simple question that's all. Are we better on the pitch than the last time we came up ?
A few posters have responded with good answers and not deviated to look for an argument

Spot on there. Folk alwase have to complicate things at times , Go in to a shop and ask the price of something. Thats what you want  not a full run down of the company`s structure

Quoted from jamesgtfc

The squad last time round was 5 years in the making and had Omar Bogle who we got a very good fee for. This year we have McAtee but his shoulder has prevented us having him for a large portion of the season.

Getting out of the NL within 3 years is a great achievement, never mind at the first attempt. I dare say the likes of Holohan and JMD were signed mid season to be a huge part of a promotion push this season. Ben Fox was a huge part of our team at the back end of last season that was a huge loss that I don't think we've fully replaced.

I do think though that we are doing just fine, I'm very happy with the team of staff Hurst is building that will pay dividends in the medium-long term. The owners proved last year that they trust him and Hurst knows there are very few, if any, clubs in the country that would afford him the time our owners are.

When you say 5 years in the making I think that was 5 years till we finally got lucky.

The team the year before is generally thought to be better than the one that went up.

This building over time is a bit of misnomer; managers find it very difficult to build teams due to the short term contracts and the minute players get a better offer they leave - Ben Fox being a good example.

Like most clubs we have an enormous turnover of players and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

I think if we had kept some of our better players even over the last few years we would have had a fantastic team but this day and age it isn't possible.

The thing that really makes a difference is money. You can have a list of players as long as your arm but if you cannot match fees/wages it is a waste of time.

Quoted from denni266

Oh hello stalker again.. No at this moment i dont want Hurst out yet , Will see what he gets in the jan sales first. Any way  hows your lumbago still making you grumpy ???  

I’m sat here just poised for misfortune….then I can strike!
What a miserable and pointless life you lead.

Quoted from chaos33

I’d say that is a very stingy assessment. We were ‘Lucky more than good’ last season? Really disagree. We were super strong when it really counted. You think we’ll need McAtee to ‘do a Bogle’ to steer clear of danger?
We’ve done pretty well without him thus far and I don’t think anyone thinks we are at risk of struggling. Could it be that the likes of you, with your loyalties, have an axe to grind, which stops you being objective?

Well we are going to have to find a replacement for McAtee sooner than we think, from what I have heard, gone in January.

Quoted from The Yard Dog

Well we are going to have to find a replacement for McAtee sooner than we think, from what I have heard, gone in January.

Didn't PH in a recent interview say we have him for the season, and he can't be recalled?

Quoted from The Yard Dog

Well we are going to have to find a replacement for McAtee sooner than we think, from what I have heard, gone in January.

intercourse me. On at least 4 different occasions either the club or PH  has said McAtee cannot be recalled.

Quoted from ginnywings

Didn't PH in a recent interview say we have him for the season, and he can't be recalled?

Included in the six-figure deal to bring McAtee to Kenilworth Road was a loan back to Blundell Park for the 2022-23 League Two season for the 23-year-old, and after spending months on the sidelines with a shoulder injury, he came back to action against Doncaster Rovers on November 12.

Luton have invested in him for a reason, so whether it’s in the 2023-24 campaign or if they utilise a mid-season recall, McAtee should have a part to play.

Quoted from The Yard Dog

Included in the six-figure deal to bring McAtee to Kenilworth Road was a loan back to Blundell Park for the 2022-23 League Two season for the 23-year-old, and after spending months on the sidelines with a shoulder injury, he came back to action against Doncaster Rovers on November 12.

Luton have invested in him for a reason, so whether it’s in the 2023-24 campaign or if they utilise a mid-season recall, McAtee should have a part to play.

Who might have a better understanding of the situation - Hurst or 25-year-old UCLAN graduate Ben Wignall of “footballleagueworld.co.uk”?

Quoted from ska face

Who might have a better understanding of the situation - Hurst or 25-year-old UCLAN graduate Ben Wignall of “footballleagueworld.co.uk”?

Depends how cynical you are 🤔

Quoted from The Yard Dog

Included in the six-figure deal to bring McAtee to Kenilworth Road was a loan back to Blundell Park for the 2022-23 League Two season for the 23-year-old, and after spending months on the sidelines with a shoulder injury, he came back to action against Doncaster Rovers on November 12.

Luton have invested in him for a reason, so whether it’s in the 2023-24 campaign or if they utilise a mid-season recall, McAtee should have a part to play.

I know Hurst often pulls a fast one in his pre-match interviews but he's said that he can't be recalled and I don't think that is something he would lie about.

Quoted from chaos33

I’m sat here just poised for misfortune….then I can strike!
What a miserable and pointless life you lead.

Quite the opposite , i just live in the real world ,, Sorry that the old lumbago is making you misserable and snappy

Quoted from chaos33

I’d say that is a very stingy assessment. We were ‘Lucky more than good’ last season? Really disagree. We were super strong when it really counted. You think we’ll need McAtee to ‘do a Bogle’ to steer clear of danger?
We’ve done pretty well without him thus far and I don’t think anyone thinks we are at risk of struggling. Could it be that the likes of you, with your loyalties, have an axe to grind, which stops you being objective?

We finished 6th in the league, an absolute mile away from Wrexham and Stockport. We had a 2nd penalty not given to Notts County that was no different to the first, Wrexham could have had more decisions although they also got lucky with some too, and we won all the games with last ditch goals. If that's not lucky, then I don't know what is.

I said to stay well clear of danger, we're already heading down that way. I've said many times that I think we'll be safe, but without somebody pulling goals out of thin air, we're going to be closer to relegation than the playoffs.

Quoted from lukeo

I would say our squad is as good as it was last time, better? Maybe not. But you can't ask a question without any facts. Still forgetting the other people away from the footballing side..
Last time we went up we was expecting/ expected to go up and was more equipped and ready for it. This time it was our first season and in transition and didn't expect promotion.
This is just one of the things you need to consider

That sounds weird and makes no sense at all, I could probably understand if you said that you can't answer a question without facts.

The Question is getting more relevant as every game goes by this season

It isn’t, and I hope you’re not planning to bump this thread when you’re bored every Sunday.

Quoted from denni266

, Sorry that the old lumbago is making you misserable and snappy

Mustn’t grumble.

Quoted from 140381

Mustn’t grumble.