Hillsborough

Why do people feel the need to turn a human tragedy into a left wing political witch hunt? This is a very simple matter. People were killed. People were incompetent to degrees up to manslaughter. People should be brought to book. End of story.

If folks are going to start on the we hate Maggie and she's to blame for Hillsborough, unemployment, paedophilia, and global warming then they are inviting discussion about why Leppings Lane had ironwork, like every other First Division club, that was downright dangerous. If they don't know, I will explain. It was to try and stop the stupid deliberate surges that were invented on the Kop at Liverpool in the 1960s. Like sheep yobs at other big clubs copied that as well as the songs and we went on to the pitch invasions. Prior to that you could stand anywhere in the country pretty safe in the knowledge that everyone wanted to avoid causing any danger.

The first horrendous crush I was ever in was at the City Ground Nottingham in 1966 which was actually before perimeter fences. Somehow Liverpool "supporters" got into the old stand and started shoving people down from the back onto the iron dividers and the wood fencing at the front. This was more or less a family stand in those days with a good few kids and dads. Did those illegitimates care about that? No they didn't and they blocked the entrances at the back to slow the police getting through. It wasn't a massive stand and it wasn't a massive number of people, I don't think it even made the national papers and of course there was no TV coverage, but it was typical of what they used to do. The Beatles were gods, all things Mersey were revered, nobody could touch them. That may or may not have happened at Hillsborough but that is why a lot of people believe the idea of angelic Liverpool support is a self-made myth.

There are a lot of variables that led to the decisions and eventual horrific out come of that terrible day.

What we know as fans of that generation, is that games like that always attracted large numbers with a complete mix bag of type of supporters, and we know that the police on numerous occasions regardless of club would open the gates to get supporters off the streets so they could be contained in the ground. I've been in to away games with Town, were Town fans were trying to push their way into the ground and people were laughing as they shouted heave, eventually getting in, other cubs with larger followings also did this so Police had knowledge this happened.

Having been in that pen following Town, we were put in there and they just kept filling it up even though we were calling for them to open up the other sides, which after they saw how compact that pen had become they eventually open the sides and you could breath.

There was no chance for this pressure to be released with the amount of Liverpool supporters, so in my eyes there are several people to be held to account. The stadium safety manager, he knows the history of that pen and the problems with clubs long before this tragedy happened, and The Officer in charge who failed to have enough Police outside the ground to stop this surge of people being allowed in.

This whole tragedy rests on negligence - duty of care, which is a legal obligation;

1) that there is a duty of care owed by one party to another
2) that there has been a breach of that duty
3) that the breach of duty has resulted in damage or loss

The Police cover up should also be opened up and investigated and anyone found to be perverting justice should be dealt with accordingly.

Finally from memory it was stated in Parliament that it was drunk Liverpool fans who caused this tragedy. The government has a duty to broadcast an apology and order public enquiries to the management and handling by all involved.

Anyone else on here at the Town v Hereford game that day and remember the old scoreboard showing "trouble at Hillsborough, 50 dead"

Quoted from top man

Full sympathy for the families and relatives and any body involved, BUT  a lot of people turned up late- forged tickets, excess alcohol. desperate to get in close to kick off- and a decision was made , rightly or wrongly to open gates to ease congestion , Many times have Town fans been in a similar situation and it must of been horrendous- remember Derby ,Leicester ,. Wolves . Wednesday  etc in our heydays , To blame one Policeman who oversaw the day is a bit harsh in my opinion . A lot of things went wrong that day and affected a lot of people . is justice done  ? RIP the 96  

You've not heard the decision of the jury then, that no responsibility rests with the fans.

PS hope you're not a copper or a magistrate.

So after the longest trial in British legal history, two years worth of evidence, millions of files, hundreds of witness statements, camera footage and advice from experts, 26 days of summing up and almost of month of deliberation by the jury...the verdicts are all irrelevant because, according RRFC, everyone liked the Beatles.

Unreal. You must've suffered brain damage in that crush of yours.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Why do people feel the need to turn a human tragedy into a left wing political witch hunt? This is a very simple matter. People were killed. People were incompetent to degrees up to manslaughter. People should be brought to book. End of story.

If folks are going to start on the we hate Maggie and she's to blame for Hillsborough, unemployment, paedophilia, and global warming then they are inviting discussion about why Leppings Lane had ironwork, like every other First Division club, that was downright dangerous. If they don't know, I will explain. It was to try and stop the stupid deliberate surges that were invented on the Kop at Liverpool in the 1960s. Like sheep yobs at other big clubs copied that as well as the songs and we went on to the pitch invasions. Prior to that you could stand anywhere in the country pretty safe in the knowledge that everyone wanted to avoid causing any danger.

The first horrendous crush I was ever in was at the City Ground Nottingham in 1966 which was actually before perimeter fences. Somehow Liverpool "supporters" got into the old stand and started shoving people down from the back onto the iron dividers and the wood fencing at the front. This was more or less a family stand in those days with a good few kids and dads. Did those illegitimates care about that? No they didn't and they blocked the entrances at the back to slow the police getting through. It wasn't a massive stand and it wasn't a massive number of people, I don't think it even made the national papers and of course there was no TV coverage, but it was typical of what they used to do. The Beatles were gods, all things Mersey were revered, nobody could touch them. That may or may not have happened at Hillsborough but that is why a lot of people believe the idea of angelic Liverpool support is a self-made myth.

God knows. All I recall from the 1980s is endless goodwill, unparalleled equality and nothing but money emanating from the south east. It was a party from start to end.

Ron, maybe there's a 'left wing witch hunt' because for decades the victims were blamed, those responsible lied and covered up and manufactured false evidence to smear other people, and the establishment connived at it. That Bernard Ingham letter says it all.

Don't forget there's been other cover ups like the paedophiles in parliament and high places (inc  prominent Liberal and Labour MPs).

Oh, and we can chuck in South Yorks Police role in the Rotherham scandal too. Not one but 2 MAJOR foul ups by the same force, 15-20 years apart, with a common theme of the police treating working class victims as the criminals. Maybe if the Hillsborough inquest had been dealt with properly a generation ago, South Yorks Police might have been reformed and purged so all those poor girls and their families would have not been ignored.

This is what our ruling class does to its own people if given the opportunity to get away with it.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

The first horrendous crush I was ever in was at the City Ground Nottingham in 1966 which was actually before perimeter fences. Somehow Liverpool "supporters" got into the old stand and started shoving people down from the back onto the iron dividers and the wood fencing at the front. This was more or less a family stand in those days with a good few kids and dads. Did those illegitimates care about that? No they didn't and they blocked the entrances at the back to slow the police getting through. It wasn't a massive stand and it wasn't a massive number of people, I don't think it even made the national papers and of course there was no TV coverage, but it was typical of what they used to do. The Beatles were gods, all things Mersey were revered, nobody could touch them. That may or may not have happened at Hillsborough but that is why a lot of people believe the idea of angelic Liverpool support is a self-made myth.

Think you're going off on a tangent there Ron. For me it was the Hillsborough ground; 1980's Sth Yorkshire police; a large-crowd.

Poorly prepared to get the fans to the ground, then all about containment inside and out the ground, panic on some parts as the horror unfolded, reluctance to help the fans as they were to be 'contained' in an almost cattle-like manner and finally the cover up and shifting of the blame.

Liverpool the club and its fans are just a variable in this whole catastrophe, it could have been any club taking a large crowd to a semi final, as witnessed in earlier games at Hillsborough; the previous year the same two teams had met and there was a serious crush. Spurs came within a whisker of heavy fatalities in '81, Hillsborough then being ignored as a semi final venue for 6 years. Just 6 years on there were more serious crushes as soon as it became a venue for semis again, especially the game involving Leeds.
The ground had no safety certificate lets not forget. It's beyond belief that a modern country could have blundered into holding a game with all those circumstances, all that ignorance, the sheer hostility between fans and the police force of the day.

The people in charge simply pushed and pushed their luck, all the time gambling with the lives of others. It's an absolute shame that all those involved in football can't concentrate on that and unite in this, and those who followed their team, inc Town, throughout the 80's might even think; there but for the grace of God..I know I shudder at the memories of some of the grounds and overcrowded situations I found myself in.

Heysel Stadium disaster
Heysel Stadium disaster
Event 1985 European Cup Final
Juventus 1–0 Liverpool
Date 29 May 1985
Location Heysel Stadium, Brussels
Cause Rioting and stadium disrepair
Result 5-year ban for all English clubs & 6-year ban for Liverpool from European competition.
Several top officials, police captain Johan Mahieu, and 14 fans convicted of manslaughter
The Heysel Stadium disaster (pronounced: [ˈɦɛizəl]; Dutch: Heizeldrama; French: Drame du Heysel) occurred on 29 May 1985 when escaping fans were pressed against a collapsing wall in the Heysel Stadium in Brussels, Belgium, before the start of the 1985 European Cup Final between Juventus of Italy and Liverpool of England. 39 people—mostly Italians and Juventus fans—were killed[1] and 600 were injured in the confrontation.[2]


'Approximately 1 hour before the Juventus-Liverpool final was due to kick off, a large group of Liverpool fans breached a fence that was separating them from a "neutral area" which contained mostly Juventus fans. The latter ran back on the terraces and away from the threat into a concrete retaining wall. Fans already standing near the wall were crushed; eventually the wall collapsed. Many people climbed over to safety, but many others died or were badly injured. The game was played despite the disaster in order to prevent further violence, with Juventus winning 1–0.[3]

The tragedy resulted in all English football clubs being placed under an indefinite ban by UEFA from all European competitions (lifted in 1990–91), with Liverpool being excluded for an additional 3 years, later reduced to 1,[4] and fourteen Liverpool fans found guilty of manslaughter and each sentenced to three years' imprisonment. The disaster was later described as "the darkest hour in the history of the UEFA competitions".[5]

I suppose the authorities at the time were wary of the above findings but, not enough thought went in to security fence design at Hillsborough to prevent the inevitable disaster maybe.

I went to this game at the Heysel, arrived at the ground after the problem had happened, gained access into section X, learned what had happened and the start of the game was put on hold, left the ground (due to no longer being interested in being at the game but watched it in a bar with Belgians and Italians). Always felt that the best outcome was a Juventus victory: - ref denied Ronnie Whelan (I think) a penalty for a foul inside the penalty box and gave Juventus a penalty for a foul outside the penalty box. These decisions helped, in a very very small way, to give a small amount of justice to Juventus, I thought.  

Quoted from 97

Anyone else on here at the Town v Hereford game that day and remember the old scoreboard showing "trouble at Hillsborough, 50 dead"

yes i remember that too, and hearing fans listening to it on the radio after the match, and then seeing it on tv when i got home. Awful and unbelievable that we are only getting to the truth of the matter so many years later