Hillsborough

Finally got the justice

What are peoples thoughts to this ?

I'm amazed that it has taken so long to finally decide they were unlawfully killed. Families have had to live with this for years. They finally get justice.

We ALL make errors of judgement but to have covered them up for so long is unforgivable in my eyes.

Nothing will bring them back but frankly the treatment of football fans as criminals continues unabated to this day which has been the case under every government (blue or red) ever since

The Police have lied, lied and lied again to try and divert the blame from themselves blaming everybody else.
I would just like to see David Duckenfield jailed for complete failure in his duty of care towards the fans, I dislike him intensely.

UTM

For a injustice to take so long to be brought  to a. Rightful outcome is a National Scandel  Thatcher  who did not have a hand in the actual events of that terrible day .She along with her cronies did nothing to bring the truth out  and forever will be part of the WHITEWASH  that ensued Lets not be Nieve  To allow blood samples to be taken from the kids that  tragically perished  to instigate that alcohol was the cause of the tragedy  is immoral and Optus  Thatcher was a snob and hated the working class . The blame lies with the whole establishment . The families of the bereaved had no one to turn to but themselves and y have to commend them for their  belief and faith.

Heads should roll now but they won't 😕

Quoted from Eastendmariner

For a injustice to take so long to be brought  to a. Rightful outcome is a National Scandel  Thatcher  who did not have a hand in the actual events of that terrible day .She along with her cronies did nothing to bring the truth out  and forever will be part of the WHITEWASH  that ensued Lets not be Nieve  To allow blood samples to be taken from the kids that  tragically perished  to instigate that alcohol was the cause of the tragedy  is immoral and Optus  Thatcher was a snob and hated the working class . The blame lies with the whole establishment . The families of the bereaved had no one to turn to but themselves and y have to commend them for their  belief and faith.

There was no establishment cover up, just a bunch of incompetent police telling lies to try and get out of the crap and digging a deeper hole every time they opened their mouths.

Whatever court cases, inquests and inquiries are held I doubt we will ever know the total truth of everything that happened that day.

I really don't take on board this was a low level cover up and that people further up the ladder didn't know what what was going on . We have understand that the stories and lies being perpetrated rated by the police -councils and media (the excrement paper the sun) government minsters was so far from the truth that if this was a ordinary policeman that had decided to open the gates the Eastablishment would of put him out to dry . Duckenfield was to blame and his allies rallied round and turned a blind eye for months and as the truth slowly came out. The Goverment did nothing hoping it would go away. So for at least 10 years this was passed from pillar to post. The fans who were unfortunate to be there that day looked to the Establishment for justice and they turned their back on them that tells me a higher public servant or department knew something that in its self is a disgrace. You are right we may never know what truly happened in Leppings lane Ihave been there with Town on many occasions. It's how the powers be that be handled the tragedy afterwards that's the real crime

The words of Thatcher's press secretary say it all...[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cg99nNSWgAAXMHp.jpg:large[/img]

Quoted from Eastendmariner

I really don't take on board this was a low level cover up and that people further up the ladder didn't know what what was going on . We have understand that the stories and lies being perpetrated rated by the police -councils and media (the excrement paper the sun) government minsters was so far from the truth that if this was a ordinary policeman that had decided to open the gates the Eastablishment would of put him out to dry . Duckenfield was to blame and his allies rallied round and turned a blind eye for months and as the truth slowly came out. The Goverment did nothing hoping it would go away. So for at least 10 years this was passed from pillar to post. The fans who were unfortunate to be there that day looked to the Establishment for justice and they turned their back on them that tells me a higher public servant or department knew something that in its self is a disgrace. You are right we may never know what truly happened in Leppings lane Ihave been there with Town on many occasions. It's how the powers be that be handled the tragedy afterwards that's the real crime

You can go round in circles with this forever blaming the freemasons, the government and Uncle Tom Cobley and still be no nearer the total truth. The waters were muddied beyond redemption by The Sun. After that, nobody believed anything that anyone said, and they still don't. The pressure of sympathy is enormous.

As for Bernard Ingham's comments, they reflect what he and a lot of people thought at that time. Why should they not think that? They were not clairvoyant. Ingham was years out of the loop by then. It's easy to condemn with hindsight from 20 years later.

I have every sympathy for the families. I've been crushed at European, FA Cup and top league games in different grounds from the 60s onwards and it is a terrifying experience. You think you will never escape, you can't breath, you have no control over your arms and legs, you panic and that makes it worse.

Never was that experience once caused by the police though. Every one was caused by the surges of largely drunken supporters or yobs. So of course people thought the same about this event. I did. Our own experiences gave us that opinion. Only much later did the incompetence and misconduct of the police come out.

Nevertheless I don't hold with those holier than thou people who use this as some sort of conspiracy theory. There were bad people, stupid people, cunning people and people given misinformation but it would never have been worth any politician's while to actually conspire to save them from discovery. That is just foil helmet territory.

I was there that day.

Swapped my Leppings Lane end ticket for one in the Spion Kop just twenty minutes before kick off. Met my mates in the Forest end and told them of the chaotic scenes outside the Liverpool end. Far too many fans crushed against the turnstiles in the rush to get in. The scenes that unfolded in front of my eyes over the next hour will live with me forever. In a state of shock I even crashed my car on the way out of Sheffield. I just wanted to get out of Sheffield as quickly as possible and still in a daze exited the city the wrong way via the Woodhead Pass. Every phone box we passed had queues of Scousers waiting to ring home to let their loved ones know they were safe.

A terrible day for the city of Liverpool and the game of football. I'm so pleased the families have finally got their justice, 27 years too late..

For me, the Leppings Lane end was not fit for purpose, an accident waiting to happen. I remember as a young kid being really scared and crushed in one of those tunnels when Town played there. I was squeezed so hard I could hardly breathe, my feet lifted off the floor being carried by the weight of fans as they left the ground.

I know fans want a return to standing at games, no-one would ever convince me it's a good idea, not even safe standing. I could describe to you many graphic scenes and awful memories of that fateful day but feel I can't out of respect for the dead.

RIP The 96..

I beg to differ. The pressure for the truth was enourmous as a nation we were sold lies. I don't feel any pressure to sympathise, but how can you not feel sympathy with the enormous injustice grieving families have had to face.
I too have stood on all the major standing terraces and been tossed about with the crowd, had the wind  knocked out of me - that was the football terrace experience as it was then why would I blame the police.
But the fact is The police  through their own incompetence actually caused the disaster at Hillsborough. Not the crowd.
These ordinary passionate football fans waited more than 20 years for a proper inquiry! And the dithering authorities at Goverment  level even as early as August 1990 stating that no body would be prosecuted  that shows the lack of  will power even then to get to the truth. I don't think that there is some sort elaborate theory to my opinion the facts are there but when the Goverment gives the impression it's done all it can and is silent and the people and families Hillborough has touched speak up I think that says volumes

As for Inghams  comments from 1996  that  proves  the tory. attitude towards  The Football family . They weren't going to do anything about Hillsborough
Don't we live in a country where we are innocent till proved Guilty or is it the other way around

RIP 96

Full sympathy for the families and relatives and any body involved, BUT  a lot of people turned up late- forged tickets, excess alcohol. desperate to get in close to kick off- and a decision was made , rightly or wrongly to open gates to ease congestion , Many times have Town fans been in a similar situation and it must of been horrendous- remember Derby ,Leicester ,. Wolves . Wednesday  etc in our heydays , To blame one Policeman who oversaw the day is a bit harsh in my opinion . A lot of things went wrong that day and affected a lot of people . is justice done  ? RIP the 96  

Justice for the 96..........I hope!!

Quoted from top man

Full sympathy for the families and relatives and any body involved, BUT  a lot of people turned up late- forged tickets, excess alcohol. desperate to get in close to kick off- and a decision was made , rightly or wrongly to open gates to ease congestion , Many times have Town fans been in a similar situation and it must of been horrendous- remember Derby ,Leicester ,. Wolves . Wednesday  etc in our heydays , To blame one Policeman who oversaw the day is a bit harsh in my opinion . A lot of things went wrong that day and affected a lot of people . is justice done  ? RIP the 96  

Well done, a dozen posts before the inevitable crock of shite from someone who can't be bothered to read, or even worse just can't be bothered to adjust his Sun-reading brain.

Years and YEARS of inquests, millions of pounds, no stone left unturned and yet still people like you can't absorb these facts and continue to pedal lies that have been indisputably proven wrong. I'm tempted to ask what does it take to get through to people like you but as usual, this awful event will be hijacked by people who have nothing better to do than to ignore one of the biggest legal inquiries and its finding and go along with what they want to believe.
Pleased for the families, will be even happier when those crooked cops who told the truth ONLY under oath, 25 years later, are jailed.

You do realise that after listening to evidence for TWO YEARS, a jury has absolved the fans of ALL responsibility?

This forum has always had fine a selection of mentally deficient goons, but this thread is on course to top the flipping lot.

Quoted from Eastendmariner

For a injustice to take so long to be brought  to a. Rightful outcome is a National Scandel  Thatcher  who did not have a hand in the actual events of that terrible day .She along with her cronies did nothing to bring the truth out  and forever will be part of the WHITEWASH  that ensued Lets not be Nieve  To allow blood samples to be taken from the kids that  tragically perished  to instigate that alcohol was the cause of the tragedy  is immoral and Optus  Thatcher was a snob and hated the working class . The blame lies with the whole establishment . The families of the bereaved had no one to turn to but themselves and y have to commend them for their  belief and faith.

Totally ridiculous trying to blame Mrs Thatcher your post has no credit, going on your analysis so do we then blame tony Blair and Gordon blame for the South Yorkshire Muslim rape gangs? No we don't it was a police cover up which has now been comfirmed.

Clearly the police fooked it up and failed to recognise the seriousness of the situation I blame south York's police for the deaths of 96 people, scousers on the day weren't angels I know people who where there and readily admit that but that doesn't excuse the police failings and the Tory government who in typical Tory style lied lied and lied again .

Quoted from Grim74

Totally ridiculous trying to blame Mrs Thatcher your post has no credit, going on your analysis so do we then blame tony Blair and Gordon blame for the South Yorkshire Muslim rape gangs? No we don't it was a police cover up which has now been comfirmed.

Totally ridiculous not to involve Thatcher in a cover up of the truth

Wonder if that Rupert Murdoch owned scum rag The Sun will now print an apology to the fans living and dead and the people of Liverpool I very much doubt it.

'In English football, most stadiums had steel fencing between the spectators and the playing field in order to prevent friendly and hostile pitch invasions. The crush occurred in pens in the Leppings Lane stand, allocated to Liverpool fans.' - from Wikipedia.

Has anyone found out who instructed the installation of these fences - who designed these fences - who approved the design of these fences - who implemented their installation? Do they still have them and if they don't - why not?

Quoted from Mrs Doyle

Wonder if that Rupert Murdoch owned scum rag The Sun will now print an apology to the fans living and dead and the people of Liverpool I very much doubt it.

I think the sun printed a full apology in a full editorial devoted to the tragedy.
I think we all agree they headlines they printed originally were sick, and I'm not defending the Sun for printing them, but it was the Actual police who fed them the bullshit now if you can't believe the seekers of truth and justice who can you believe.

I totally
Agree with your point I have no proof but did the Goverment did have the files etc. Andy Burnham released them after the Anfield crowd became vocal
But it certainly isn't ridiculous. Not to blame Thatcher and the Goverment for not making a real sustained effort to uncovering the Truth that's my point  The people in power just push it to one side as usual  

Had to post on here.


This was the culmination of a decade long war against the working class. Of course Thatcher was in on it. She made the police her fûcking paratroopers. And they loved it as much as she did.

Those heads that are left must roll, and a similar inquiry into Orgreave please.

Yep your right I have no facts to back my argument.I blame Thatcher for not getting to the truth that's my point.Surely when investigated police statements that had been altered would highlight major conflicting views on events even some one with basic common sense it would raise alarm bells.Are y telling me these statements would not be available at local or ministerial level. May be if Andy Burnham had been around in 1990 some of those responsible would be in jail now  and not just a shallow apoligy

Quoted from Eastendmariner

I totally
Agree with your point I have no proof but did the Goverment did have the files etc. Andy Burnham released them after the Anfield crowd became vocal
But it certainly isn't ridiculous. Not to blame Thatcher and the Goverment for not making a real sustained effort to uncovering the Truth that's my point  The people in power just push it to one side as usual  

You could say that about successive Goverments though even Tony Blair rejected an Hillsborough inquiry according to Andy Burnham.
I'm no Tory boy but let's have some balance on here if we are going down the conspiracy road, I get what you are saying about the files and the truth etc, but the fact remains South Yorkshire police where wholly responsible.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

There was no establishment cover up, just a bunch of incompetent police telling lies to try and get out of the crap and digging a deeper hole every time they opened their mouths.

Whatever court cases, inquests and inquiries are held I doubt we will ever know the total truth of everything that happened that day.

Disagree the Thatcher Government were only too happy to scapegoat the people of Liverpool along with their mouthpiece the Sun.

Yes the police were to blame it's what happened afterwards that's unacceptable blood samples the media lies police statements altered not taking into account it might be some else's fault apart from the fans and the years of not listening to the relatives of the 96

Does this sound familiar the great British  Electorate

Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen and BP ended up being made all seater as a result because we happened to be in the second tier at the time of the Taylor report (I am sure it would still have large standing areas otherwise, not least the Ponny). Have we learned anything today? I don't really find that different about the whole tragedy than I did yesterday.

Why do people feel the need to turn a human tragedy into a left wing political witch hunt? This is a very simple matter. People were killed. People were incompetent to degrees up to manslaughter. People should be brought to book. End of story.

If folks are going to start on the we hate Maggie and she's to blame for Hillsborough, unemployment, paedophilia, and global warming then they are inviting discussion about why Leppings Lane had ironwork, like every other First Division club, that was downright dangerous. If they don't know, I will explain. It was to try and stop the stupid deliberate surges that were invented on the Kop at Liverpool in the 1960s. Like sheep yobs at other big clubs copied that as well as the songs and we went on to the pitch invasions. Prior to that you could stand anywhere in the country pretty safe in the knowledge that everyone wanted to avoid causing any danger.

The first horrendous crush I was ever in was at the City Ground Nottingham in 1966 which was actually before perimeter fences. Somehow Liverpool "supporters" got into the old stand and started shoving people down from the back onto the iron dividers and the wood fencing at the front. This was more or less a family stand in those days with a good few kids and dads. Did those illegitimates care about that? No they didn't and they blocked the entrances at the back to slow the police getting through. It wasn't a massive stand and it wasn't a massive number of people, I don't think it even made the national papers and of course there was no TV coverage, but it was typical of what they used to do. The Beatles were gods, all things Mersey were revered, nobody could touch them. That may or may not have happened at Hillsborough but that is why a lot of people believe the idea of angelic Liverpool support is a self-made myth.

There are a lot of variables that led to the decisions and eventual horrific out come of that terrible day.

What we know as fans of that generation, is that games like that always attracted large numbers with a complete mix bag of type of supporters, and we know that the police on numerous occasions regardless of club would open the gates to get supporters off the streets so they could be contained in the ground. I've been in to away games with Town, were Town fans were trying to push their way into the ground and people were laughing as they shouted heave, eventually getting in, other cubs with larger followings also did this so Police had knowledge this happened.

Having been in that pen following Town, we were put in there and they just kept filling it up even though we were calling for them to open up the other sides, which after they saw how compact that pen had become they eventually open the sides and you could breath.

There was no chance for this pressure to be released with the amount of Liverpool supporters, so in my eyes there are several people to be held to account. The stadium safety manager, he knows the history of that pen and the problems with clubs long before this tragedy happened, and The Officer in charge who failed to have enough Police outside the ground to stop this surge of people being allowed in.

This whole tragedy rests on negligence - duty of care, which is a legal obligation;

1) that there is a duty of care owed by one party to another
2) that there has been a breach of that duty
3) that the breach of duty has resulted in damage or loss

The Police cover up should also be opened up and investigated and anyone found to be perverting justice should be dealt with accordingly.

Finally from memory it was stated in Parliament that it was drunk Liverpool fans who caused this tragedy. The government has a duty to broadcast an apology and order public enquiries to the management and handling by all involved.

Anyone else on here at the Town v Hereford game that day and remember the old scoreboard showing "trouble at Hillsborough, 50 dead"

Quoted from top man

Full sympathy for the families and relatives and any body involved, BUT  a lot of people turned up late- forged tickets, excess alcohol. desperate to get in close to kick off- and a decision was made , rightly or wrongly to open gates to ease congestion , Many times have Town fans been in a similar situation and it must of been horrendous- remember Derby ,Leicester ,. Wolves . Wednesday  etc in our heydays , To blame one Policeman who oversaw the day is a bit harsh in my opinion . A lot of things went wrong that day and affected a lot of people . is justice done  ? RIP the 96  

You've not heard the decision of the jury then, that no responsibility rests with the fans.

PS hope you're not a copper or a magistrate.

So after the longest trial in British legal history, two years worth of evidence, millions of files, hundreds of witness statements, camera footage and advice from experts, 26 days of summing up and almost of month of deliberation by the jury...the verdicts are all irrelevant because, according RRFC, everyone liked the Beatles.

Unreal. You must've suffered brain damage in that crush of yours.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

Why do people feel the need to turn a human tragedy into a left wing political witch hunt? This is a very simple matter. People were killed. People were incompetent to degrees up to manslaughter. People should be brought to book. End of story.

If folks are going to start on the we hate Maggie and she's to blame for Hillsborough, unemployment, paedophilia, and global warming then they are inviting discussion about why Leppings Lane had ironwork, like every other First Division club, that was downright dangerous. If they don't know, I will explain. It was to try and stop the stupid deliberate surges that were invented on the Kop at Liverpool in the 1960s. Like sheep yobs at other big clubs copied that as well as the songs and we went on to the pitch invasions. Prior to that you could stand anywhere in the country pretty safe in the knowledge that everyone wanted to avoid causing any danger.

The first horrendous crush I was ever in was at the City Ground Nottingham in 1966 which was actually before perimeter fences. Somehow Liverpool "supporters" got into the old stand and started shoving people down from the back onto the iron dividers and the wood fencing at the front. This was more or less a family stand in those days with a good few kids and dads. Did those illegitimates care about that? No they didn't and they blocked the entrances at the back to slow the police getting through. It wasn't a massive stand and it wasn't a massive number of people, I don't think it even made the national papers and of course there was no TV coverage, but it was typical of what they used to do. The Beatles were gods, all things Mersey were revered, nobody could touch them. That may or may not have happened at Hillsborough but that is why a lot of people believe the idea of angelic Liverpool support is a self-made myth.

God knows. All I recall from the 1980s is endless goodwill, unparalleled equality and nothing but money emanating from the south east. It was a party from start to end.

Ron, maybe there's a 'left wing witch hunt' because for decades the victims were blamed, those responsible lied and covered up and manufactured false evidence to smear other people, and the establishment connived at it. That Bernard Ingham letter says it all.

Don't forget there's been other cover ups like the paedophiles in parliament and high places (inc  prominent Liberal and Labour MPs).

Oh, and we can chuck in South Yorks Police role in the Rotherham scandal too. Not one but 2 MAJOR foul ups by the same force, 15-20 years apart, with a common theme of the police treating working class victims as the criminals. Maybe if the Hillsborough inquest had been dealt with properly a generation ago, South Yorks Police might have been reformed and purged so all those poor girls and their families would have not been ignored.

This is what our ruling class does to its own people if given the opportunity to get away with it.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

The first horrendous crush I was ever in was at the City Ground Nottingham in 1966 which was actually before perimeter fences. Somehow Liverpool "supporters" got into the old stand and started shoving people down from the back onto the iron dividers and the wood fencing at the front. This was more or less a family stand in those days with a good few kids and dads. Did those illegitimates care about that? No they didn't and they blocked the entrances at the back to slow the police getting through. It wasn't a massive stand and it wasn't a massive number of people, I don't think it even made the national papers and of course there was no TV coverage, but it was typical of what they used to do. The Beatles were gods, all things Mersey were revered, nobody could touch them. That may or may not have happened at Hillsborough but that is why a lot of people believe the idea of angelic Liverpool support is a self-made myth.

Think you're going off on a tangent there Ron. For me it was the Hillsborough ground; 1980's Sth Yorkshire police; a large-crowd.

Poorly prepared to get the fans to the ground, then all about containment inside and out the ground, panic on some parts as the horror unfolded, reluctance to help the fans as they were to be 'contained' in an almost cattle-like manner and finally the cover up and shifting of the blame.

Liverpool the club and its fans are just a variable in this whole catastrophe, it could have been any club taking a large crowd to a semi final, as witnessed in earlier games at Hillsborough; the previous year the same two teams had met and there was a serious crush. Spurs came within a whisker of heavy fatalities in '81, Hillsborough then being ignored as a semi final venue for 6 years. Just 6 years on there were more serious crushes as soon as it became a venue for semis again, especially the game involving Leeds.
The ground had no safety certificate lets not forget. It's beyond belief that a modern country could have blundered into holding a game with all those circumstances, all that ignorance, the sheer hostility between fans and the police force of the day.

The people in charge simply pushed and pushed their luck, all the time gambling with the lives of others. It's an absolute shame that all those involved in football can't concentrate on that and unite in this, and those who followed their team, inc Town, throughout the 80's might even think; there but for the grace of God..I know I shudder at the memories of some of the grounds and overcrowded situations I found myself in.

Heysel Stadium disaster
Heysel Stadium disaster
Event 1985 European Cup Final
Juventus 1–0 Liverpool
Date 29 May 1985
Location Heysel Stadium, Brussels
Cause Rioting and stadium disrepair
Result 5-year ban for all English clubs & 6-year ban for Liverpool from European competition.
Several top officials, police captain Johan Mahieu, and 14 fans convicted of manslaughter
The Heysel Stadium disaster (pronounced: [ˈɦɛizəl]; Dutch: Heizeldrama; French: Drame du Heysel) occurred on 29 May 1985 when escaping fans were pressed against a collapsing wall in the Heysel Stadium in Brussels, Belgium, before the start of the 1985 European Cup Final between Juventus of Italy and Liverpool of England. 39 people—mostly Italians and Juventus fans—were killed[1] and 600 were injured in the confrontation.[2]


'Approximately 1 hour before the Juventus-Liverpool final was due to kick off, a large group of Liverpool fans breached a fence that was separating them from a "neutral area" which contained mostly Juventus fans. The latter ran back on the terraces and away from the threat into a concrete retaining wall. Fans already standing near the wall were crushed; eventually the wall collapsed. Many people climbed over to safety, but many others died or were badly injured. The game was played despite the disaster in order to prevent further violence, with Juventus winning 1–0.[3]

The tragedy resulted in all English football clubs being placed under an indefinite ban by UEFA from all European competitions (lifted in 1990–91), with Liverpool being excluded for an additional 3 years, later reduced to 1,[4] and fourteen Liverpool fans found guilty of manslaughter and each sentenced to three years' imprisonment. The disaster was later described as "the darkest hour in the history of the UEFA competitions".[5]

I suppose the authorities at the time were wary of the above findings but, not enough thought went in to security fence design at Hillsborough to prevent the inevitable disaster maybe.

I went to this game at the Heysel, arrived at the ground after the problem had happened, gained access into section X, learned what had happened and the start of the game was put on hold, left the ground (due to no longer being interested in being at the game but watched it in a bar with Belgians and Italians). Always felt that the best outcome was a Juventus victory: - ref denied Ronnie Whelan (I think) a penalty for a foul inside the penalty box and gave Juventus a penalty for a foul outside the penalty box. These decisions helped, in a very very small way, to give a small amount of justice to Juventus, I thought.  

Quoted from 97

Anyone else on here at the Town v Hereford game that day and remember the old scoreboard showing "trouble at Hillsborough, 50 dead"

yes i remember that too, and hearing fans listening to it on the radio after the match, and then seeing it on tv when i got home. Awful and unbelievable that we are only getting to the truth of the matter so many years later

Quoted from 97

Had to post on here.


This was the culmination of a decade long war against the working class. Of course Thatcher was in on it. She made the police her fûcking paratroopers. And they loved it as much as she did.

Those heads that are left must roll, and a similar inquiry into Orgreave please.

Going off thread a little but I was at Orgreave that day, the one always shown on telly, and I got a proper cunting from OB. We had been playing football on Bridlington beach and got brawling with some Barnsley miners when they found out we were steelworkers ( Orgreave was owned by the then British steel). All made up we said we'd join them on a picket and that was the one. The news footage always seems back to front as well. It always shows the miners charging first then the police charging. I remember it different.

Quoted from top man

Full sympathy for the families and relatives and any body involved, BUT  a lot of people turned up late- forged tickets, excess alcohol. desperate to get in close to kick off- and a decision was made , rightly or wrongly to open gates to ease congestion , Many times have Town fans been in a similar situation and it must of been horrendous- remember Derby ,Leicester ,. Wolves . Wednesday  etc in our heydays , To blame one Policeman who oversaw the day is a bit harsh in my opinion . A lot of things went wrong that day and affected a lot of people . is justice done  ? RIP the 96  

I call bullshit on this and refer you to this segment of the investigation done back in 1989!

https://twitter.com/ffion_/status/725047019883094016

Quoted from Green27

I call bullshit on this and refer you to this segment of the investigation done back in 1989!

https://twitter.com/ffion_/status/725047019883094016

If I'm reading that right there is an estimate of nearly 2,500 fans entering after gate C was opened and there is no evidence that can say whether any of those fans had tickets so no surprise that if they poured through that small tunnel that there was a crush and people died.

A barmy decision to open that gate and clearly crap policing outside and then lies by the illegitimates who organised it all.

Quoted from arryarryarry

If I'm reading that right there is an estimate of nearly 2,500 fans entering after gate C was opened and there is no evidence that can say whether any of those fans had tickets so no surprise that if they poured through that small tunnel that there was a crush and people died.

A barmy decision to open that gate and clearly crap policing outside and then lies by the illegitimates who organised it all.

But what it does say is for the stand 10,100 tickets were sold. The highest estimate they place on fans being in that stand is 10,124. They're saying 24 people may have got in without a ticket.

Quoted from arryarryarry

If I'm reading that right there is an estimate of nearly 2,500 fans entering after gate C was opened and there is no evidence that can say whether any of those fans had tickets so no surprise that if they poured through that small tunnel that there was a crush and people died.

A barmy decision to open that gate and clearly crap policing outside and then lies by the illegitimates who organised it all.

The main cause of the disaster was the failure to close access to Pens 3 and 4 when they were full and divert fans to the side pens. Exit Gate C had been opened numerous times before under similar circumstances to those outside the Leppings Lane turnstyles in 1989. There are countless photos showing the side pens were no where near full as the disaster unfolded. If you go on YouTube and watch the Panarama Hillsborough programme even John Motson preparing for commentary notices this and comments on it.

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjdDyp22RI8]BBC Panarama- Hillsborough. How They Buried the Truth[/url] Skip to 04:32 for John Motson.

Quoted from ska face

So after the longest trial in British legal history, two years worth of evidence, millions of files, hundreds of witness statements, camera footage and advice from experts, 26 days of summing up and almost of month of deliberation by the jury...the verdicts are all irrelevant because, according RRFC, everyone liked the Beatles.

Unreal. You must've suffered brain damage in that crush of yours.

You have a way with words don't you. Pity the brain to keyboard connection is broken.

Read the post. Nothing to do with experts, juries or verdicts, none of which say anything about right wing politicians by the way.

I am talking about people who try to make people's suffering into some form of conspiracy. Next they will be saying that Number 10 ordered Duckenfield to open the gates. Yes it's that stupid. This was a social and football problem compounded by some lying policemen. All the rest is irrelevant make believe. The trouble is that the victims have become martyrs to the wrong cause.

You don't understand where this disaster came from do you? You don't understand how Hillsborough and lots of other grounds became death traps. Up until the mid-60s there was no segregation. You could go where you liked.  Liverpool was one of the  first big sources of crowd trouble in the 1960s and the Kop surge was copied by other 'firms' notable Man U, Leeds and the London clubs.. Pitch invasions became a weekly event all over. People were getting stabbed and battered. Ken Bates at Chelsea even put up an electrified fence at the Shed End to pen supporters in. Thank God he never turned it on. But that's what we got. Suddenly all of us turning up to watch a game of football found ourselves penned in like animals because there were some idiots who behaved like animals who were not there for the football anyway. Clearly you have no comprehension of that at all.

These 96 people were victims on the day of police incompetence but the whole situation was the result of the way supporters had behaved and were still behaving at that time and the way grounds were adapted to cope. If you had asked anyone on the morning of that game or any other big game what they were most afraid of the answer would not have been the police, it would have been crowd trouble. That is the era we were in. That was the atmosphere and that is why those people died so horribly. If there were no fences and pens then Duckenfield's actions or inactions would not have mattered. People would simply have spilled onto the pitch and been safe.

Yet today there are still people who think pitch invasions are OK, who think all stewards are a waste of space and all police are morons and a ruck with the opposition supporters is an integral part of a good day out. Well in my eyes these people are much more likely to be the cause of  tragedies like Hillsborough and Heysel than anyone else.

Quoted from TheRonRaffertyFanClub

You have a way with words don't you. Pity the brain to keyboard connection is broken.

Read the post. Nothing to do with experts, juries or verdicts, none of which say anything about right wing politicians by the way.

I am talking about people who try to make people's suffering into some form of conspiracy. Next they will be saying that Number 10 ordered Duckenfield to open the gates. Yes it's that stupid. This was a social and football problem compounded by some lying policemen. All the rest is irrelevant make believe. The trouble is that the victims have become martyrs to the wrong cause.

You don't understand where this disaster came from do you? You don't understand how Hillsborough and lots of other grounds became death traps. Up until the mid-60s there was no segregation. You could go where you liked.  Liverpool was one of the  first big sources of crowd trouble in the 1960s and the Kop surge was copied by other 'firms' notable Man U, Leeds and the London clubs.. Pitch invasions became a weekly event all over. People were getting stabbed and battered. Ken Bates at Chelsea even put up an electrified fence at the Shed End to pen supporters in. Thank God he never turned it on. But that's what we got. Suddenly all of us turning up to watch a game of football found ourselves penned in like animals because there were some idiots who behaved like animals who were not there for the football anyway. Clearly you have no comprehension of that at all.

These 96 people were victims on the day of police incompetence but the whole situation was the result of the way supporters had behaved and were still behaving at that time and the way grounds were adapted to cope. If you had asked anyone on the morning of that game or any other big game what they were most afraid of the answer would not have been the police, it would have been crowd trouble. That is the era we were in. That was the atmosphere and that is why those people died so horribly. If there were no fences and pens then Duckenfield's actions or inactions would not have mattered. People would simply have spilled onto the pitch and been safe.

Yet today there are still people who think pitch invasions are OK, who think all stewards are a waste of space and all police are morons and a ruck with the opposition supporters is an integral part of a good day out. Well in my eyes these people are much more likely to be the cause of  tragedies like Hillsborough and Heysel than anyone else.

Ummmmm well the most notable trouble of that era in Britain resulting in death would be Brum v Leeds when a wall collapsed and a young lad died which suggests no matter how bad the violence seemed it rarely if ever resulted in deaths.Hillsorough and Bradford from the same era both massive casualties and neither had anything to do with so called hooligans but more to do with poor organisation and crap stadiums.The fences at both games must have been a massive contributing factor and I don't know but suspect Clubs were told they must have them?

In many ways I can accept that this tragic event was caused by poor stadium design, poor organization. In many ways I can even accept people made mistakes during what happened which made it worse. This event's legacy has led to massive improvements in stadium safety and organization, and reviews will have learnt from the mistakes made so it will never happen again, if that's any consolation to the people who lost loved one.

What I cannot accept is that people seem have lied and covered up mistakes to cover their own backs and should be held accountable.

Views from Forest fans.

http://www.forest.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32146&start=1

Police incompetence caused the unlawful killing of 96 football fans at Hillsborough. Never, ever, lose sight of that, because that is exactly what happened. Whether or not you don't / didn't like Scousers that is totally irrelevant, because people lost their lives that day because of the police.

Was there a cover up? Of course there was, and it went straight to the very top of the tree at Downing Street. Don't forget that you can't keep politics out of certain things, and the police were Thatchers stormtroopers during the 1980's. When she was taking on the dockers, the miners, the steelworkers she was using the police - to whom she'd given huge pay rises in her early years - to smash them. Murdoch called in favours from Thatcher to take on the print unions at Wapping in 1986, and the police were used extensively there. They all drunk in the same pot, and it's no surprise that Murdoch would have repaid the favour to Thatcher with the Hillsborough allegations - which she quickly pounced upon of course.

96 folk needlessly lost their lives that day, and it has been kept under cover for 27 years. As football fans we all owe a huge thankou to those who fought for justice.

Quoted from Teestogreen

Heysel Stadium disaster
Heysel Stadium disaster
Event 1985 European Cup Final
Juventus 1–0 Liverpool
Date 29 May 1985
Location Heysel Stadium, Brussels
Cause Rioting and stadium disrepair
Result 5-year ban for all English clubs & 6-year ban for Liverpool from European competition.
Several top officials, police captain Johan Mahieu, and 14 fans convicted of manslaughter
The Heysel Stadium disaster (pronounced: [ˈɦɛizəl]; Dutch: Heizeldrama; French: Drame du Heysel) occurred on 29 May 1985 when escaping fans were pressed against a collapsing wall in the Heysel Stadium in Brussels, Belgium, before the start of the 1985 European Cup Final between Juventus of Italy and Liverpool of England. 39 people—mostly Italians and Juventus fans—were killed[1] and 600 were injured in the confrontation.[2]


'Approximately 1 hour before the Juventus-Liverpool final was due to kick off, a large group of Liverpool fans breached a fence that was separating them from a "neutral area" which contained mostly Juventus fans. The latter ran back on the terraces and away from the threat into a concrete retaining wall. Fans already standing near the wall were crushed; eventually the wall collapsed. Many people climbed over to safety, but many others died or were badly injured. The game was played despite the disaster in order to prevent further violence, with Juventus winning 1–0.[3]

The tragedy resulted in all English football clubs being placed under an indefinite ban by UEFA from all European competitions (lifted in 1990–91), with Liverpool being excluded for an additional 3 years, later reduced to 1,[4] and fourteen Liverpool fans found guilty of manslaughter and each sentenced to three years' imprisonment. The disaster was later described as "the darkest hour in the history of the UEFA competitions".[5]

I suppose the authorities at the time were wary of the above findings but, not enough thought went in to security fence design at Hillsborough to prevent the inevitable disaster maybe.

I went to this game at the Heysel, arrived at the ground after the problem had happened, gained access into section X, learned what had happened and the start of the game was put on hold, left the ground (due to no longer being interested in being at the game but watched it in a bar with Belgians and Italians). Always felt that the best outcome was a Juventus victory: - ref denied Ronnie Whelan (I think) a penalty for a foul inside the penalty box and gave Juventus a penalty for a foul outside the penalty box. These decisions helped, in a very very small way, to give a small amount of justice to Juventus, I thought.  

There was trouble well before this game kicked off, the pre match game was Belgian team playing in red so Liverpool fans backed them and they ended up fighting with Juventus fans and that game was stopped.

What I remember from this game a larger contingent of Juventus fans got tickets with a smaller group of Liverpool fans in what was meant to be the neutral zone for Belgians, and the obvious gesturing resulted coins and stones being thrown by both sides.

As we know the Hooligan element of most English clubs at the time were more than open to fighting on the terraces. A surge of Liverpool hooligans caused a panic and that led to the horrific scenes.

Policing, segregation and a rotten stadium being the root cause of this terrible page in history.

What idiot gave 'Bigdog' a Red Cross. Ffs the man was there and his post had nothing political about it, pure facts from someone who was there. I give up

Quoted from arryarryarry

Views from Forest fans.

http://www.forest.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32146&start=1

i always had a soft spot for Forest, particularly Cloughie through the 80's but I can't say that I ever felt Cloughie's class and knowledge was passed on to a large bulk of Forest fans. They seem to have taken on his abrupt and forthright approach but not his fair-mindedness. Every other Forest fan that I've spoken with simply hate Scousers, and all seem to have been their that fateful day, or (rather handily) knew someone who was, seeing things that non one else did, but should have, from the away end.

Again, thousands of pages, hours of footage, hundreds of eye witnesses (a lot of them neutral) who have presented their evidence, yet still I hear the same..a mate of a mate who knew the program seller that day saw 'what really happened' etc....I wonder if these faceless message board types might actually go as far as to join a radio phone in and tell us what they saw and see if it could possibly tie in with the version of events that thousands of others saw, including the police, who have now withdrawn all of their drunken mob/gate storming/ticketless gangs theories. Maybe, depressingly, The Sun newspaper really can sell a story that sticks, at least to those who want to believe something.

I remember at the time of the disaster, that Liverpool fans said that the FA should have given them the opposite end of the ground.  This was bigger and Liverpool were expected to take more fans.

Unless I missed it, I did not see this issue mentioned yesterday as a contributory factor.  

Like I said before let's not be Nieve about where the cover started and where it ended

This is a National Scandel  and the Thatcher Goverment knew about  it  

I can't believe some of the muppets on here still disregard the evidence of a due and proper legal process, heard and ruled on by a jury. Sun and Times readers to a man I suspect.

I see that well known Left Wing Witch Hunter (copyright RRFC), Teresa May, was sticking the boot into the rozzers today.

Mark my words, there will be some revelations about ministerial involvement in the cover ups and lies. Now the Tory government has turned on the Old Bill (after falling out with them over cuts the other year) and has been dragged into clipping the press' wings over phone hacking (and bribing coppers), rozzers and journos will be looking for opportunities to bring some big names down with them.

The gang of crooks is falling out big time.

Quoted from top man

Full sympathy for the families and relatives and any body involved, BUT  a lot of people turned up late- forged tickets, excess alcohol. desperate to get in close to kick off- and a decision was made , rightly or wrongly to open gates to ease congestion , Many times have Town fans been in a similar situation and it must of been horrendous- remember Derby ,Leicester ,. Wolves . Wednesday  etc in our heydays , To blame one Policeman who oversaw the day is a bit harsh in my opinion . A lot of things went wrong that day and affected a lot of people . is justice done  ? RIP the 96  

Possibly the most hideous post I've ever seen on the fishy.

Quoted from Teestogreen

Heysel Stadium disaster
Heysel Stadium disaster
Event 1985 European Cup Final
Juventus 1–0 Liverpool
Date 29 May 1985
Location Heysel Stadium, Brussels
Cause Rioting and stadium disrepair
Result 5-year ban for all English clubs & 6-year ban for Liverpool from European competition.
Several top officials, police captain Johan Mahieu, and 14 fans convicted of manslaughter
The Heysel Stadium disaster (pronounced: [ˈɦɛizəl]; Dutch: Heizeldrama; French: Drame du Heysel) occurred on 29 May 1985 when escaping fans were pressed against a collapsing wall in the Heysel Stadium in Brussels, Belgium, before the start of the 1985 European Cup Final between Juventus of Italy and Liverpool of England. 39 people—mostly Italians and Juventus fans—were killed[1] and 600 were injured in the confrontation.[2]


'Approximately 1 hour before the Juventus-Liverpool final was due to kick off, a large group of Liverpool fans breached a fence that was separating them from a "neutral area" which contained mostly Juventus fans. The latter ran back on the terraces and away from the threat into a concrete retaining wall. Fans already standing near the wall were crushed; eventually the wall collapsed. Many people climbed over to safety, but many others died or were badly injured. The game was played despite the disaster in order to prevent further violence, with Juventus winning 1–0.[3]

The tragedy resulted in all English football clubs being placed under an indefinite ban by UEFA from all European competitions (lifted in 1990–91), with Liverpool being excluded for an additional 3 years, later reduced to 1,[4] and fourteen Liverpool fans found guilty of manslaughter and each sentenced to three years' imprisonment. The disaster was later described as "the darkest hour in the history of the UEFA competitions".[5]

I suppose the authorities at the time were wary of the above findings but, not enough thought went in to security fence design at Hillsborough to prevent the inevitable disaster maybe.

I went to this game at the Heysel, arrived at the ground after the problem had happened, gained access into section X, learned what had happened and the start of the game was put on hold, left the ground (due to no longer being interested in being at the game but watched it in a bar with Belgians and Italians). Always felt that the best outcome was a Juventus victory: - ref denied Ronnie Whelan (I think) a penalty for a foul inside the penalty box and gave Juventus a penalty for a foul outside the penalty box. These decisions helped, in a very very small way, to give a small amount of justice to Juventus, I thought.  

No, was wrong. This one's even more despicable.

I came in to work this morning (in Manchester), bumped in to someone and told them that I'm going to Wembley in two weeks to see my team return to the football league. Read this thread and feel sick regarding quite a few of the posts on here. There are many you have a lot to learn from the dignity and grace of the people that this whole thing has affected. Could probably get you a job with the South Yorkshire police legal team if you fancy it. Go and speak your bile to the people of Liverpool,

UTM

Bit late to the discussion, normally the withch hunt in the aftermath of tragedy is something that upsets me.  For example there were so many errors that caused that tragedy, I think it is foolish to blame one person or one group, diasasters are a series of unfortunate events and most of the time if you take out one of the contributing factors, the disaster doesn't occur.  So for example I think it is right to say that if the hooligan elements hadn't been so prominenet in football we wouldn't have had peremiter fencing, no peremiter fencing no tragedy that day.  To disregard all fan behaviour in the years building up to Hilsborough would be wrong.  

BUT having had these problems we had the procedures and systems in place to properly deal with crowds like this and not let what happened happen.  Catastrophic mistakes were made by the people managing the game on the day.  If they had been open and honest about it that would of been the most powerful weapon, we learn from our mistakes.  I admit if I make a mistake at work it doesn't result in 96 people losing their lives, but surely if the man who carried that scar with him everyday was to use his experience to prevent it happening to anyonelse that would of been so beneficial to all people involved in crowd control.

Instead they hid the truth disgracefully trying to run away from the consequences, and that is the biggest offence in my opinion.  While I do not think Tatcher, Ingham and co. were actually involved in covering it up, I do think their predisposed opinion that football fans were all yobs meant they were happy with the varnished truth and never took any further interest in the matter.

Read the thread and hundreds of thousands of other words / opinions . Been to hundreds of games following town since 1969. Of course there would have been fans who had drunk too much ( including Forest fans)  I can't remember the last game I went to without having a couple of pints . Of course there would of been last minute queues , there always is . I've queued at several non league !! "Stadiums" this season . And of course some will have gone without tkts . If town was in the FA cup semi and I never had a tkt I would be there attempting to gain entry However . ( no climbing these days tho.
My opinion is that a lot of factors combined together resulted in this disaster but far and away the reason for the 96 deaths was the decisions made by the Chief Cop .
The one thing I am certain of , the 96 where completely innocent .
I hope they can rest in peace ,which I doubt cos I don't think we've heard the last of it , but I'm done with it all .

Back to the present for me, C'mon Town .


UTM

Quoted from Caesar

Bit late to the discussion, normally the withch hunt in the aftermath of tragedy is something that upsets me.  For example there were so many errors that caused that tragedy, I think it is foolish to blame one person or one group, diasasters are a series of unfortunate events and most of the time if you take out one of the contributing factors, the disaster doesn't occur.  So for example I think it is right to say that if the hooligan elements hadn't been so prominenet in football we wouldn't have had peremiter fencing, no peremiter fencing no tragedy that day.  To disregard all fan behaviour in the years building up to Hilsborough would be wrong.  

BUT having had these problems we had the procedures and systems in place to properly deal with crowds like this and not let what happened happen.  Catastrophic mistakes were made by the people managing the game on the day.  If they had been open and honest about it that would of been the most powerful weapon, we learn from our mistakes.  I admit if I make a mistake at work it doesn't result in 96 people losing their lives, but surely if the man who carried that scar with him everyday was to use his experience to prevent it happening to anyonelse that would of been so beneficial to all people involved in crowd control.

Instead they hid the truth disgracefully trying to run away from the consequences, and that is the biggest offence in my opinion.  While I do not think Tatcher, Ingham and co. were actually involved in covering it up, I do think their predisposed opinion that football fans were all yobs meant they were happy with the varnished truth and never took any further interest in the matter.

More or less my thoughts ,said much better than me 😂

UTM

For anyone interested, and anyone who still thinks that the Police weren't at fault for this horrific tragedy, please read this article. I found it to be really in depth and well written and I learnt more than I had known previously:

[url]http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades?[/url]

Had to hold back the tears on many occasions reading it. It's irrelevant whether there were drunk fans attending. It was the job of South Yorkshire Police to look after the fans and police the match sufficiently. They completely failed to do that and I firmly believe that if Duckenfield had not been put in charge of the match, then the tragedy would've been avoided. They added insult to injury by blaming it on those fans and attempting to shirk all responsibility. How they thought they could get away with blaming it on fans being drunk and turning up without tickets defies belief, the depressing thing is they DID for 27 years.

And here are a few choice quotes:

"Wright’s high-handed rule was at the root of the disaster, the inquests heard. Just 19 days before the semi-final, he abruptly moved his seasoned, expert, popular commander at Sheffield Wednesday’s Hillsborough stadium, Ch Supt Brian Mole. In Mole’s place, Wright promoted Duckenfield, who had never commanded a match at Hillsborough before, nor even been on duty there for 10 years."

"the operational plan in place from the previous year when, under Mole’s command, an identical match between the same two clubs was played at Hillsborough"

" he failed to do basic preparation for the semi-final. He did not study relevant paperwork, including the force’s major incident procedure, and signed off the operational plan two days after taking over, before he had even visited the ground.
He turned up to command the semi-final, he admitted, knowing very little about Hillsborough’s safety history: about the crushes at the 1981 and 1988 semi-finals, or that the approach to the Leppings Lane end was a “natural geographical bottleneck” to which Mole had carefully managed supporters’ entry."

"Duckenfield admitted he had not familiarised himself in any detail with the ground’s layout or capacities of its different sections. He did not know the seven turnstiles, through which 10,100 Liverpool supporters with standing tickets had to be funnelled to gain access to the Leppings Lane terrace, opened opposite a large tunnel leading straight to the central pens, three and four. He did not even know that the police were responsible for monitoring overcrowding, nor that the police had a tactic, named after a superintendent, John Freeman, of closing the tunnel when the central pens were full, and directing supporters to the sides. He admitted his focus before the match had been on dealing with misbehaviour, and he had not considered the need to protect people from overcrowding or crushing."

Whatever happened, everyone should come home alive and well from watching a game of football.

The match commander that day should have been Brian Mole, he had several years experience policing at Hillsborough, he was praised previous years for his excellent policing, the disaster wouldn't have happened if Brian Mole was in charge, but yet he was on duty elsewhere on that day.

David Duckenfield wasn't even a football fan, I've watched a documentary before and David Duckenfield started the pre match briefing with "Good morning everybody and welcome to the Liverpool V Nottinghamshire football game" every football fan knows it is not Nottinghamshire, he hadn't even been to the ground before so he had no idea about the layout of the ground and surrounding areas.

Hillsborough didn't even hold a valid safety certificate so the game shouldn't have been held there in the first place, the Leppings Lane was too small for Liverpool fans, they should have been given the other end of the ground, I've been to the Leppings Lane end before and how over 20'000 people can get in  6 turnstiles is absolutely crazy, it would have been 18 turnstiles but the Penistone Road turnstiles were closed by the police so everyone had to get in the Leppings Lane end no matter where you was sat, meanwhile Notts Forest had loads more turnstiles to go in despite having less fans.

There was absolutely no plan whatsoever for the Liverpool fans, no queues to go into, it was all just one rabble, then when the situation outside the ground got too much they opened the gate and thousands more went into the ground, down the central tunnel into an already crowded 2 middle pens, when the police opened the tunnel they didn't think about where the fans would go, it's obvious the tunnel should have been closed and fans re directed into the virtually empty side pens, but no the police just stood and watched as people walked to their deaths, why wasn't kick off put back, why wasn't the pens filled one at a time ?

When it was obvious people were dying the ambulance and police were too slow to react. Bodies were just piled in the Gym, when families had to identify their loved ones they were treated like criminals, the police did everything they could to detract blame, they said the fans stormed the gate when in fact the police had opened it, they blamed the fans, senior officers did nothing to help the dying, they didn't care that people had died, criminal record checks and blood alcohol levels taken on all the dead, including children who had died all in an attempt to blame fans, look at 2 CCTV tapes stolen after the game, no doubt those tapes showed evidence of police failings

The police, ambulance service, Sheffield city council, Sheffield Wednesday Football Club, the structural engineers and the FA all made mistakes that day which killed people Then for 27 years lied about it and now finally about time the real truth has come out and now people should go to jail for a whole string of offences Including Manslaughter perverting the course of justice and perjury.

About time the truth of mistakes and lies have come out, shame it took 27 years

Fact is Hillsborough should never have happened, and it wouldn't have done if people did their jobs properly

I have spent the last few days taking this in and despite like any football fan this being firmly on the map in the last 2 and a bit decades looking at the pictures in the media, the interviews with the relatives of the 96 and the outcome of the hearings etc.. etc... and maybe it's because I am getting a bit older and you naturally start thinking more about mortality but more than ever this feels like the stuff of fiction and I have found myself thinking how could this have ever been allowed to happen.

When I talk about "this" I don't just mean that awful day of the tragedy but the 27 years in between, the lies, the deceit and the procrastination of the authorities to resolve this whilst seeing the bereaved suffering. How did they ever think that this would not come out in the end I will never know?    

There appears to still be a number of massive issues to be resolved and clearly some individuals/authorities need to be brought to book. Also a mass media apology by that Tory rag and it's editor would not go a miss, where are the hacks from Fleet St now? Hiding behind the likes of Murdoch no doubt.

It's easy to let emotion take over and lose sight of many things but what needs to be recognised and never forgotten are the poor people who lost their lives and the fight that whilst going through personal hell the bereaved left behind showed in their search for justice!

My first words on this when I saw it unfold on the day was "my god all they where doing was going to the match" and I guess that is what I have also though in regard to the 96 poor souls lost that day.

Having seen a big number of documentaries on this all I've gotta say is them Liverpool thugs that steamed in gate C when that guy got thrown out must be really happy with the recent verdict.. How they can not take any blame at all for the tragedy is beyond me, of course a HUGE blame lies on the police and the organisers but i'd be willing to bet my house on it that the number of casualties would of been a lot less had that large number of fans not ran (yes ran, in not talking about casually strolling in, they actually steamed through them) through them gates..

It was the poor innocents that went in first and went in legally (with tickets through a turnstyle) that suffered that day..

RIP to everyone of them..

Put your house on it then, and write a complaint, citing this as new evidence. They ran in because the match was NOT being put on hold, still thousands outside, suddenly a gate opens...kick off is minutes away and you think you'd stroll in and buy a program on your way to the terrace? Add to that the hundreds of people behind you unwittingly crushing you into the turnstiles because they also want to get inside for the kick off.

Not sure how many times this can be said...

Quoted from Neilo83

Having seen a big number of documentaries on this all I've gotta say is them Liverpool thugs that steamed in gate C when that guy got thrown out must be really happy with the recent verdict.. How they can not take any blame at all for the tragedy is beyond me, of course a HUGE blame lies on the police and the organisers but i'd be willing to bet my house on it that the number of casualties would of been a lot less had that large number of fans not ran (yes ran, in not talking about casually strolling in, they actually steamed through them) through them gates..

It was the poor innocents that went in first and went in legally (with tickets through a turnstyle) that suffered that day..

RIP to everyone of them..

I wish the jury had seen the documentaries you saw and had you there to point it out for them. Would have saved them countless hours of witness accounts, expert opinions and video footage etc all to come to the wrong conclusion.

Quoted from RoboCod

Put your house on it then, and write a complaint, citing this as new evidence. They ran in because the match was NOT being put on hold, still thousands outside, suddenly a gate opens...kick off is minutes away and you think you'd stroll in and buy a program on your way to the terrace? Add to that the hundreds of people behind you unwittingly crushing you into the turnstiles because they also want to get inside for the kick off.

Not sure how many times this can be said...

Totally understand this mate, and yeah you're right delaying kick off got rejected because it was too late  

All i'm saying is that the ones that rushed in must of played a huge factor in what happened that day.. But as someone has put above, pen 3 and 4 should of been closed of a lot earlier, so many factors caused it..

Quoted from Neilo83

Having seen a big number of documentaries on this all I've gotta say is them Liverpool thugs that steamed in gate C when that guy got thrown out must be really happy with the recent verdict.. How they can not take any blame at all for the tragedy is beyond me, of course a HUGE blame lies on the police and the organisers but i'd be willing to bet my house on it that the number of casualties would of been a lot less had that large number of fans not ran (yes ran, in not talking about casually strolling in, they actually steamed through them) through them gates..

It was the poor innocents that went in first and went in legally (with tickets through a turnstyle) that suffered that day..

RIP to everyone of them..

Of the 96 people who died, 30 were still outside the turnstiles at 2.52pm. They went in through gate C when invited by police, and were crushed in the central pens barely 10 minutes later.

Neilo, this just shows the chaotic nature of the event and why it's taken 2 years of careful sifting through the evidence to get to the root of it. The incident you talk of was the very first opening of Gate C. Those fans didn't steam in, in fact it sums up the mindset of the police on the day that, with over 5,000 fans struggling to get through, 10 minutes to k.o and a real danger of fatalities occurring, the police opened Gate C to eject a fan. Staggering really, did 1 single fan need chucking out so badly?

Not surprisingly some fans took the opportunity to get in and away from the worsening situation outside, these were still ticket holders though and seemingly had no inkling that Gate C was about to open, and just 150 got through the gate.
The actual deadly crushes were caused on the 2nd and 3rd opening of the gate, opened to relieve the crushes outside, and done the year before in the similar crush but only after the tunnel was blocked off.
Opened by an officer who, strangely, claimed to suffer from long term memory loss in the witness box and can't remember being told officially to do so.
It's all out there, it's up to the person reading to take it all in or just cherry pick the facts/fiction for their own take on it.

Quoted from Neilo83

Totally understand this mate, and yeah you're right delaying kick off got rejected because it was too late  

All i'm saying is that the ones that rushed in must of played a huge factor in what happened that day.. But as someone has put above, pen 3 and 4 should of been closed of a lot earlier, so many factors caused it..

The tunnel should have been closed, like it was at every match with a big crowd at Hillsborough in the years leading to the disaster. But it wasn't, because the Police Officer put in charge days before the match in place of the usual officer had no idea that this tactic was usually used to good effect, and no idea about Hillsborough. And also made no efforts to do any research or take any advice before the match.

But please, do tell me again how it was the fault of some fans who had had a few pints and 'ran' towards the crowd whilst having no idea of what was happening in there.

From what I can tell "fault" lies with those who where meant to be managing the event not the fans. Was that not confirmed by the inquest?

Maybe some of the fatalities could have been avoided if the officers commanding the Police in that black line between two sets of fans had showed some compassion and morality and allowed a few officers to break ranks and deal with the real issue.

  

Didn't take them long after the inquest verdict did it?

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/.....Rmx&ocid=UE03DHP

and before everyone hits the red x button I welcome the inquest verdict and I am sure it is right but all we have heard is 'justice'. Justice will be the criminal prosecution of those at fault - this is more like revenge

Quoted from 97

Had to post on here.


This was the culmination of a decade long war against the working class. Of course Thatcher was in on it. She made the police her fûcking paratroopers. And they loved it as much as she did.

Those heads that are left must roll, and a similar inquiry into Orgreave please.

Agree 100% with this.  The Thatcher govt was divisive, creating a view of society where if you weren't 'one of us' then you were part of the enemy within.  If you were a trade unionist, a Labour supporter, a football supporter, a foreigner, you weren't part of the Tory world under Thatcher.  The police wasn't only institutionally racist - it was infiltrated by a lot of right wing thugs.  Not all the police but enough of them
to treat the likes of football supporters with contempt - a crowd to be controlled with force and treated like cattle, not to be kept safe.

The police are to blame but they operated within a culture that was set by Thatcher and Murdoch.

Quoted from Neilo83

Having seen a big number of documentaries on this all I've gotta say is them Liverpool thugs that steamed in gate C when that guy got thrown out must be really happy with the recent verdict.. How they can not take any blame at all for the tragedy is beyond me, of course a HUGE blame lies on the police and the organisers but i'd be willing to bet my house on it that the number of casualties would of been a lot less had that large number of fans not ran (yes ran, in not talking about casually strolling in, they actually steamed through them) through them gates..

It was the poor innocents that went in first and went in legally (with tickets through a turnstyle) that suffered that day..

RIP to everyone of them..

Don't think you should inject humour into a thread like this because this clearly has to be a urine take. Surely? There's dim, partial and narrow-minded and there's posts like this.

Quoted from LondonMariner43

Agree 100% with this.  The Thatcher govt was divisive, creating a view of society where if you weren't 'one of us' then you were part of the enemy within.  If you were a trade unionist, a Labour supporter, a football supporter, a foreigner, you weren't part of the Tory world under Thatcher.  The police wasn't only institutionally racist - it was infiltrated by a lot of right wing thugs.  Not all the police but enough of them
to treat the likes of football supporters with contempt - a crowd to be controlled with force and treated like cattle, not to be kept safe.

The police are to blame but they operated within a culture that was set by Thatcher and Murdoch.

Some sense. It was class war. Simple.

Despite a painstakingly long enquiry, it's amazing how some football fans on here think the fans must still be to blame.

Shows just how the evil lies of the police reinforced by the press and government were allowed to infest the public consciousness.

Why shouldn't the families sue ?

Many of the Campaigners had to take early retirement to focus on campaigning, this recent inquest is the only time they haven't had to pay for their own legal team, so they've all spent a load of money to get this far,  it's taken a strain on peoples health and it's taken a financial strain so why shouldn't they sue

Quoted from sam gy

For anyone interested, and anyone who still thinks that the Police weren't at fault for this horrific tragedy, please read this article. I found it to be really in depth and well written and I learnt more than I had known previously:

[url]http://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades?[/url]

Just got to say thanks for sharing that link and encourage others to read it, very thorough article and a fascinating read, although somewhat sad obviously.

Quoted from Caesar

Just got to say thanks for sharing that link and encourage others to read it, very thorough article and a fascinating read, although somewhat sad obviously.

David Conn is an excellent journalist. If you get the chance I strongly recommend people read his books, The Beautiful Game, The Football Business and a few more

Quoted from Cloudy

David Conn is an excellent journalist. If you get the chance I strongly recommend people read his books, The Beautiful Game, The Football Business and a few more

Fully agree. He's certainly got a lot more integrity than the so called journalists who work for papers that didn't even cover Hillsborough this week.

Quoted from big al

No, was wrong. This one's even more despicable.

Big Al   Did you design the security fence in the Leppings Lane end at Hillsborough? - where there were no relief gates, it seems, to enable crowd to evacuate on to the pitch - not just for over crowding but in the event of a fire? Intrinsic design is at the top of the tree in terms of human safety and risk assessment, and management arrangements are much lower down the hierarchy of scales. Unfortunately, intrinsic design was not in place for this stadium, and management arrangements (being lower down the hierarchy of scales of risk assessment) has been found out and punished.

The managers of the stadium appear to have got away with it i.m.o. - (which is wrong).

Where is the H.S.E. to provide the guidance / judgement that it preaches?
.

Did the 33 fans who got killed at Bolton get justice?

Quoted from LondonMariner43

Agree 100% with this.  The Thatcher govt was divisive, creating a view of society where if you weren't 'one of us' then you were part of the enemy within.  If you were a trade unionist, a Labour supporter, a football supporter, a foreigner, you weren't part of the Tory world under Thatcher.  The police wasn't only institutionally racist - it was infiltrated by a lot of right wing thugs.  Not all the police but enough of them
to treat the likes of football supporters with contempt - a crowd to be controlled with force and treated like cattle, not to be kept safe.

The police are to blame but they operated within a culture that was set by Thatcher and Murdoch.

Re the above, absolutely spot on, If you did not own your own home, rack up debt on consumer goods, buy shares in Nationalised companies you where thought to be some kind of weirdo lefty. Their contempt for the working man, naked aggression towards amongst others the striking miners and the political capital milked from the Falklands crises where two of the most detestable things of that regime.

On a number of occasions this included they would wheeled out that twit Colin Moynihan who was meant to be the sports minister but was one of Thatchers lackeys to politicise sport and talk about tournament withdrawals when they should have been seeking out the true causes and the guilty.        

Some should be embarrassed by the type of society they created in the 80s.

Quoted from 28195

Did the 33 fans who got killed at Bolton get justice?

The dead and injured were taken from the railway end terrace, with those who had died lain along the touchline and covered in coats. A little under half an hour after leaving the pitch, the game was restarted, with a new sawdust lined touchline separating the players from the corpses. At the end of the first-half, the players immediately changed ends and started the second half. Stanley Matthews was on the Stoke team, and later said he was sickened that the game was allowed to continue

So no, there was no justice. You'd hope that we'd have moved on from such brutal treatment and flagrant dismissal of responsibility for football fans from 1946  though.

I've not got much to add to this sorry story of how those innocent fans lost their lives but to say that over time what would have become just a distant memory for lots of us - say like the Ibrox disaster in the early 70s - this still generates so much comment because not for just what happened on the day but because of the cover up, the lies, the deceit of the SYP, blaming the victims and not admitting their wrong-doing

When I first heard on the day what was going on it made me think of a night match at Hillsborough where I and many other Town fans were being held outside the ground waiting to get in when the game kicked off

Same approach but on a smaller scale....we were all getting impatient and then when Town scored twice in the first couple of minutes we were more and more agitated so when we got in we of course all ran to get to the terraces going through that tunnel

I don't usually get claustrophobic but being in there does make you nervy so what those poor folk must have experienced beggars belief

For the authorities who we should be able to depend upon to then subject the families involved to such contempt, to have witness stories discredited and for the powers that be to conspire to pervert the course of justice is absolutely disgusting

I can't begin to get my head around what the families who lost loved ones might have endured for the past 27 years but being older and wiser since it all happened and having become a parent gives me another perspective

Anyone of us could have been caught up in such an event as young football fans and the loss of life that they suffered is unforgivable

It's the years thereafter where the pain has been prolonged that is criminal. Families suffering and grieving to this day because of spineless selfishness on the part of SYP  and other establishment figures, this so needs to be kept in the public domain until there is an outcome that delivers some closure for those affected.

Only when those who abused their positions of power and who lied to the public are taken to task. will justice be seen to have been served

#JFT96

Only born in the mid 80s but wasn't it Thatcher who let everyone own their own home?
And everyone lapped it up. They couldn't get enough. Meant they couldn't go on strike